Is it worth to redesign the MiSTer?

[andrezheng]

Put the USB hub, SDRAM, VGA/Audio board into one main board?
The layout makes me so exhausted.............

[grizzly]

A couple off thoughts about that (and i am far,far away from having anything to do with mister besides playing with it).
1, If everything is on one board should/can the board be bigger then the De-10 nano?
2, If no will the memory chips have room?
3, The memory must have as short traces as possible or the performance will suffer, the 90° angel boards that are/was made do already suffer a bit.
4, Traces for the memory should also be kept away from other traces to avoid interference and probably needs a bigger gap then if not on the same board (again the size).
5, From what i gather (but could be wrong) there are not enough FPGA pins to implement everything at the same time, so there must be additional circuity added to that one board to maybe solve that problem.
6, Not many will need everything on one (probably expensive) board, and if we "fix" that we are back to pretty much what we have now.

And thats what i thought of in the 2-3 min it took to write this.

[jca]

Have a look at MISTix which is a mini ITX board into which the DE-10 nano plugs, it is in development and at this time has only a few USB ports.

[KnC]

The MiSTer is best left modular imo there is a few choices like blisster instead of a usb hub ect
There is nothing stopping you from making a pcb with everything you want though and others may want the same things

there was an all in one io that did not go down well at the time esp when we got the 128mb ram and people had to buy a new io and ram

[Newsdee]

An IO board with USB like MiSTix seems like the way to go, especiallly if you can make it cheaper than the separate components. You won't be able to beat Terasic's massive production capacity, though, so forget about redoing the DE10 Nano as a hobbyist pcb.

[andrezheng]

Verified my all in one board. The SDRAM BOARD: AS4C32M16SB-7TCN, I/O, USB hub by using Microchip USB2514.

[breiztiger]

nice work !!!

you do think to sell this ?

[andrezheng]

nice work !!!

you do think to sell this ?

My purpose of designing this daughter board is to verify the components' package dimension. This is some kind of preparation work for my final design with Cyclone V SoC.

[MAPPY]

Awesome work but that USB2514 looks pretty hard to hand solder. I'm not familiar with that type of package tho

[aberu]

Awesome work but that USB2514 looks pretty hard to hand solder. I'm not familiar with that type of package tho

Either use a super small bevel tip, or start using solder paste and bake it on.

My boss uses stencils and solder paste frequently for small work just like this on his own projects, so that's probably the best way once you get used to it.

[andrezheng]

I'll switch to draw a core board first. This seems take much less effort.

[ericgus09]

Didn't Jim Drew try to do something similar with his AIO mister board but fell afoul ..? I know he was selling it for a while but then the dram layout changed and his AIO quickly got outdated .. there were some other issues too but I know there was a big argument over it with Sorgelig (I also think he didnt make his designs open being one of the main issues)..

[Newsdee]

Didn't Jim Drew try to do something similar with his AIO mister board but fell afoul ..?

This is different; it's about replacing the entire MiSTer stack, including the DE10, with one PCB.

[jca]

Didn't Jim Drew try to do something similar with his AIO mister board but fell afoul ..? I know he was selling it for a while but then the dram layout changed and his AIO quickly got outdated .. there were some other issues too but I know there was a big argument over it with Sorgelig (I also think he didnt make his designs open being one of the main issues)..

It was a super I/O board which included RTC and 32MB memory. The only 2 problems:
It did not make it to the list of official cores as the gerber files were not provided.
Having only 32MB of memory does not allow to run all roms from the NeoGeo core. No other core is affected, cores which can use more than 32MB SDRAM use instead the DDR3 memory of the DE10-Nano.
One advantage: it has no problem with CPS 1.5.
I would not call it outdated.
An AIO MISTer will be really expensive. With a proper layout it will avoid the problems experienced with some 128MB modules. Expanding the memory would be a problem but let face it: the 128MB module is underutilized as I mentioned. As of today 96MB would be enough to run everything except the apple demo on the NeoGeo.
The day may come when the DE10-nano is no longer produced and designing an AIO MiSTer is worth it for the future but I do not expect it to be a commercial success at this time.

[aberu]

The AIO MiSTer would be prohibitively expensive mostly because the Cyclone V used in the DE10-Nano costs more than the DE10-Nano itself. The DE10-Nano is practically sold as a loss leader in terms of pricing strategy, to get people into developing with FPGA and sell higher end products to them later. The OSSC Pro moving to a Cyclone V is seeing a more than doubling in price as a result of this partially, for instance.

[Newsdee]

The AIO MiSTer would be prohibitively expensive

Put it in a nice case and it still has a niche, though.

[jca]

The AIO MiSTer would be prohibitively expensive

Put it in a nice case and it still has a niche, though.

NT mini noir?
MISTix?
UnAmiga ITX?

[Newsdee]

NT mini noir?
MISTix?
UnAmiga ITX?

My point exactly. Some people will be willing to spend money if they don't have to assemble it themselves and it looks nice.

It will be interesting to see what price point they can hit. If it gets under 500 USD, it won't be that different to a fully assembled MiSTer with case (420 with passively cooled case)

[Reed_Solomon]

The only benefit I can see would be if it was designed to fit in a portable case with LCD.

[ericgus09]

This is different; it's about replacing the entire MiSTer stack, including the DE10, with one PCB.

It would cost a lot more to fab a DE10 clone since the de10 is sold at an "educational" loss.. but I wouldn't stop anyone from doing it and having enjoyment from making it, it just will never be as inexpensive as the genuine article and that will be offputting for a large number of people.. there is also something to be said for modularity .. i.e. when the 128mb module became a thing, it was a pretty simple (and easy) swapout from my 32mb module.. in the case of an AIO you'd have to toss the baby with the bathwater if there was a major hardware revision or feature added. .. there is something to be said for the beauty of modularity.

[andrezheng]

The only benefit I can see would be if it was designed to fit in a portable case with LCD.

Another important thing is JT seems meet some issue related the clock speed for SDRAM when porting CPS1.5. If the SDRAM modules merged into the core board, then the SDRAM's performance will be much better.

[aberu]

The AIO MiSTer would be prohibitively expensive

Put it in a nice case and it still has a niche, though.

What's your proposed price point? Because to turn a mild profit you would probably have to charge 500 dollars for one, or more. People will compare a bundle like from misteraddons or ultimate mister, and see the more "flat" AIO mister, realize they have nearly identical capabilities, and opt to save 100-200 dollars, most of the time.

It's fine obviously, people do what they want, just musing on the idea of it in the first place, since it is interesting and there are pros and cons.

To give you an idea of why i think it will be price prohibitive...

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/In ... XetA%3D%3D
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/det ... 7N/3929193

That's the cost of the same Cyclone V that is on the DE10-Nano. $246.42 USD

EDIT: Just realized OP is using a significantly cheaper (also less capable) IoC in their design (given the filename at the top of their screenshot).

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/det ... 7n/3929230

25k less logic elements means no ao486 and no SNES core most likely, at least in their current form.

[JimDrew]

Didn't Jim Drew try to do something similar with his AIO mister board but fell afoul ..? I know he was selling it for a while but then the dram layout changed and his AIO quickly got outdated .. there were some other issues too but I know there was a big argument over it with Sorgelig (I also think he didnt make his designs open being one of the main issues)..

It was a super I/O board which included RTC and 32MB memory. The only 2 problems:
It did not make it to the list of official cores as the gerber files were not provided.
Having only 32MB of memory does not allow to run all roms from the NeoGeo core. No other core is affected, cores which can use more than 32MB SDRAM use instead the DDR3 memory of the DE10-Nano.
One advantage: it has no problem with CPS 1.5.
I would not call it outdated.

The Super Expansionr Board (like the Multi Expansion Board) are commercial products that were created at the request of Terasic and several major universities. The DE-10 Nano with these boards are used for classes on CPLD/FPGA development. I kept the pinout similar to what the basic MiSTer uses, but added break outs for I2C, SPI, and serial that are not available on any of the MISTer I/O boards. Those options were required for the classes. My boards are properly designed with impedance matching, optimal trace spacing, and power supply filtering. Designing things like this is what I do. So, it is not a surprise to me that they have no problems with CPS 1.5 - which I was not aware of until today as I don't really follow the MiSTer stuff, I focus on the educational market.

The DE10 is a subsidized project. Microchip, IBM, Intel, and others that have chips on the DE-10 have provided those at their production cost to Terasic, for focusing on the educational industry. This is why Terasic can make money selling a board that costs over $300 (at 1K pcs - I know because I was going to make them at one point) for $99 to students.

[Newsdee]

What's your proposed price point? (...) opt to save 100-200 dollars, most of the time.

That's not for me to figure out, it just doesn't seem to deter OP

[aberu]

Yeah I wouldn't hope this would deter anyone. I'm just a nerd on imagining the details

[ericgus09]

The DE10 is a subsidized project. Microchip, IBM, Intel, and others that have chips on the DE-10 have provided those at their production cost to Terasic, for focusing on the educational industry. This is why Terasic can make money selling a board that costs over $300 (at 1K pcs - I know because I was going to make them at one point) for $99 to students.

I actually mentioned that in one of my previous posts.. it would cost significantly more to do the board on your own because its subsidized ..

[throAU]

Price wise i think there’s a market for a much more expensive box if it is simple to set up (buy board, insert prepped SD card (or even ship with one), plug in controllers).

Retro gaming is getting pretty big now and a lot of the people interested are in their 30s+ with disposable income.

I know I would have been willing to pay 4x de10 nano price or more for a turnkey single board solution if it was well publicised and available to buy.

[dmckean]

Price wise i think there’s a market for a much more expensive box if it is simple to set up (buy board, insert prepped SD card (or even ship with one), plug in controllers).

Retro gaming is getting pretty big now and a lot of the people interested are in their 30s+ with disposable income.

I know I would have been willing to pay 4x de10 nano price or more for a turnkey single board solution if it was well publicized and available to buy.

4x the price of the de10 nano might not even be doable considering the SOC alone costs more than double the DE10 nano price.

[throAU]

Price wise i think there’s a market for a much more expensive box if it is simple to set up (buy board, insert prepped SD card (or even ship with one), plug in controllers).

Retro gaming is getting pretty big now and a lot of the people interested are in their 30s+ with disposable income.

I know I would have been willing to pay 4x de10 nano price or more for a turnkey single board solution if it was well publicized and available to buy.

4x the price of the de10 nano might not even be doable considering the SOC alone costs more than double the DE10 nano price.

Yeah, thinking about it, it could be more.

Either way.. it was plucked from thin air. 6-8x the price would also be marketable I think. People are paying DE10-nano price for shitty commercial ARM based retro-hardware that emulates a single platform pretty badly.

I myself have spent WAY more on real retro-consoles in various states of disrepair for example last year (4x Saturns, 2 of them don't work, 2 of them are dodgy), a couple of Pis to emulate amiga, etc; never mind having an all-in-one system that is as lag free and accurate as most of the mister cores.

It took me a while to commit to mister as though all the info is out there, figuring out where to start as someone totally new to the project was time consuming.

If you're somewhat technical its easy enough, but there are plenty out there who would be interested who aren't.

Just look at the price that old retro computers and consoles fetch on eBay - and most of them are on borrowed time life-wise.


To be clear, I'm not suggesting (or wanting) anyone abandon the DE10-nano, and I'm fully aware its a hobbyist project. Just that as a new user looking in, it is intimidating and an all-in-one unit could sell for significantly more I believe.

[redsteakraw]

What I would say is you could redesign the MiSTer with a custom board Maybe have a Jamma edge built in and other niceties the question is would the redesign be worth the cost of a non subsidized FPGA. You can design a more mobile MiSTer if you redesigned it maybe have something like the switch or you could make the thing bigger but your use case would need to fit the intended design and would that use case be worth it? now you could add cartridge slots 2 snac ports and other cool things if you go larger or you can make it small so it can fit in a mobile enclosure. It really is up to you. Just keep in mind the base price of any redesign would be 300 and your new device might be in the $400 - $500 range.