3D LCD shutter glasses support?

[ccovell]

Hey, folks. Both the NES / Famicom and Sega Master System had 3D glasses, with a handful of games that supported them. Have either of these cores been programmed to pass the 3D shutter signals to any of the I/O ports in MiSTer?

The FC 3D shutter is selected via a write out the joystick expansion port, and the SMS 3D shutter is done by a write to a memory address ($FFF8). At least one commercial SNES / SFC game also supports shutter glasses via data 3 pin from either joystick port.

So, can these (and other) 3D shutter writes be unified in some way and passed out an IO port on the MiSTer? (Wiring up the glasses with a proper decoder/amplifying board can be the user's job.)

[LamerDeluxe]

I'd love to see 3D games support 3D half over-under view (best type for passive 3D displays), to support 3D monitors and TVs. A Virtual Boy core that's able to do that would be great as well.

I do still have my Sega 3D shutter glasses somewhere, but that would be more of a hassle to use. Maybe those could work in combination with a SNAC adapter?

[MiSTer_Kirk]

There was a discussion here.
https://misterfpga.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=550

Anaglyph support would probably be easier/better because it's easier to get hold of red/blue glasses than it is getting the proper SMS/NES glasses.

[ccovell]

I have seen that discussion. Thanks for the replies so far, but talk of 3D TVs, over-under, and anaglyph is a bit of a digression from my original question, since they are ideas for producing 3D on modern LCD TVs. Not to mention they would need the graphical/framebuffer part of each core to be specially programmed.

I'm just talking about drawing out some of the signals already present on the joypad (etc) connectors of the original hardware to somewhere on the MiSTer I/O board or pins. There are still plenty of other modern-ish shutter glasses (for CRT TVs) that can be bought and are still compatible with the signaling the Fami and SMS ones use. An amp board can be made by a user who wants to build one. If the MiSTer is all about open-source add-ons, then connecting a newly-designed one, or one brought over from a classic system, fits the philosophy.

[LamerDeluxe]

There was a discussion here.
https://misterfpga.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=550

Anaglyph support would probably be easier/better because it's easier to get hold of red/blue glasses than it is getting the proper SMS/NES glasses.

Support for both would be best IMO, red/blue glasses are not remotely comparable to the quality of a 3D display.
EDIT: I see I already mentioned similar things in that other thread. Well done past me

[MiSTer_Kirk]

red/blue glasses are not remotely comparable to the quality of a 3D display.

True. But not everyone can afford, or have access to a 3D display, and Anaglyph is at least affordable and easily available. For me, personally, I'm not bothered by a 3D display. I already have a full VR setup here, and an ageing 3D display can't get anywhere near the true 3D of VR.

[LamerDeluxe]

red/blue glasses are not remotely comparable to the quality of a 3D display.

True. But not everyone can afford, or have access to a 3D display, and Anaglyph is at least affordable and easily available. For me, personally, I'm not bothered by a 3D display. I already have a full VR setup here, and an ageing 3D display can't get anywhere near the true 3D of VR.

True, that's why I said both.

I have lots of VR and MR stuff here, I use that for my work. My passive 3D displays (especially my 4K OLED TV) will still easily beat the image quality of my Valve Index and especially the HoloLens 2, lol.

The experience is very different with VR of course, you're completely immersed in the virtual world. I've been working on creating my own Desktop AR software with my 3D displays and hand/head tracking, it is a really nice alternative for MR.

[MiSTer_Kirk]

My passive 3D displays (especially my 4K OLED TV) will still easily beat the image quality of my Valve Index and especially the HoloLens 2, lol.

Of course it will, so will my 4k BenQ 144hz 30" monitor. But, I would take my Hp Reverb G2, Big Box VR + 50ft Cinema screen in VR, over your OLED TV.
3D TV is dead, the future is VR and AR.

[LamerDeluxe]

My passive 3D displays (especially my 4K OLED TV) will still easily beat the image quality of my Valve Index and especially the HoloLens 2, lol.

Of course it will, so will my 4k BenQ 144hz 30" monitor. But, I would take my Hp Reverb G2, Big Box VR + 50ft Cinema screen in VR, over your OLED TV.
3D TV is dead, the future is VR and AR.

Actually, not quite (I agree that the hype for home use is long gone). I create XR applications for a living, so I know the massive potential of that, especially in serious applications. But Sony just revealed their spatial reality display, which is an auto-stereoscopic 3D display with head-tracking. Dimenco in the Netherlands has something similar as their main business (I've visited them), there is the stereoscopic Lume pad and Looking Glass just had a very successful Kickstarter for their holographic Portrait display (I've backed that as well).

There is room for a system (Desktop AR) where you don't have to wear any gear and don't have to touch anything, combined with the detail of a display of up to 8K resolution (Looking Glass / Dimenco), to view and interact with holographic images. Interesting for medical applications, for instance.
Looking Glass envision a large holographic display as a good alternative to a headset, Minority Report style.

I think the future of 3D displays will be in that kind of interactive holographic light field displays, mostly for professional applications, at first anyway.

Interesting thing is that Disney killed a number of potential 3D TV channels, they wouldn't allow their content on them, for some reason, so stations planning on starting a 3D channel decided against it. I was working on a live TV studio system back then, including its stereoscopic 3D support, I witnessed the rise and fall of 3D TV at the time.

[lupin3rd]

Wait, what was this thread about again?

[ccovell]

Yeah, perhaps my polite request not to derail the thread needed to be more 'shouty'.

[LamerDeluxe]

Sorry, stereoscopic 3D is one of my favorite subjects.

[dshadoff]

If the 3D glasses are signalled by a joystick (expansion) port, wouldn't they be accessible by SNAC ?
...Assuming the cores in question support SNAC - NES should, but I'm not sure whether the supported port is indeed the same one used by the glasses.

[cmstar0]

Interesting point about SNAC. I never got to experience the hardware 3D glasses growing up. Two questions for the gang here.

1. I assume if the glasses were to work with SNAC or through some user port adapter, these would be synchronized with a CRT signal and would not correctly work with a modern HDMI display, correct?

2. Someone mentioned you can still purchase new hardware that is compatible with Famicom/SMS. Could someone point me in the direction of this?

Bonus: What SFC game supported this? I was completely unaware of this?

In any case, I would love to see this support added (if it does not already exist via SNAC) and would absolutely purchase necessary hardware and gladly support a patreon to make it happen if need be.

[LamerDeluxe]

Yes, I would think so. That could also mean it might work with the MiniMig core. I still have my Sega shutter glasses and the adapter I made to connect them to the Amiga, somewhere. You could render (interlaced) 3D animations and view them with those glasses.

@cmstar0 If they work the same on the Nintendo and Sega consoles as on the Amiga they will sync to the separate odd and even fields of an interlaced display, with the two fields showing the graphics for each eye. I expect it does indeed need a CRT to function correctly. Don't expect much from the image quality, there will be cross-talk between the left and right eye with those shutter glasses.

[MiSTer_Kirk]

The problem with using SNAC is that, how would you also support a controller ?
Unlike real hardware, there is no second port.

[ccovell]

1. I assume if the glasses were to work with SNAC or through some user port adapter, these would be synchronized with a CRT signal and would not correctly work with a modern HDMI display, correct?

2. Someone mentioned you can still purchase new hardware that is compatible with Famicom/SMS. Could someone point me in the direction of this?

Bonus: What SFC game supported this? I was completely unaware of this?

Hi! 1. Yes, it's for CRT screens. 2. I wrote that new hardware was still compatible with the signaling method that the NES/SMS have in common, not that new hardware was compatible with those systems on its own. Google for "lcd shutter glasses" and any wired glasses that have a 1/8" headphone-looking jack should work with the boxes that connect to the Famicom and SMS. However, said boxes (which convert +5v/Gnd/LR signal into a +-10V or whatever AC signal) still have to be found or made anew.

Bonus: the game is Hyper Zone, which activates a 3-D shutter mode with a special code: https://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16968

[cmstar0]

@ccovell, @LamerDeluxe

Thank you both for the information...aaaannd...curse you both for ripping open a huge rabbit hole that I will inevitably be going down and obsessing over for the next weeks to months

Very interesting stuff. Never new about the SFC or that such glasses were usable on the Amiga. Just when I thought I had gotten over collecting old/obscure hardware.....

[LamerDeluxe]

@ccovell, @LamerDeluxe

Thank you both for the information...aaaannd...curse you both for ripping open a huge rabbi thole that I will inevitably be going down and obsessing over for the next weeks to months

Very interesting stuff. Never new about the SFC or that such glasses were usable on the Amiga. Just when I thought I had gotten over collecting old/obscure hardware.....

Hahaha, glad to be of help
I'm trying to remember what the official expensive glasses were on the Amiga. Someone said they looked like 'nerd welder goggles from planet Mongo' compared to Sega's 'Snoopy's Joe Cool glasses'. There was at least one demo 3D game for it, which worked with my setup. EDIT: I remembered, they were the Haitex X-Specs 3D.

The price is why I got the Sega glasses and made my own interface, using a design I found online. I rendered some stuff in Imagine for it, which looked really cool.

[cmstar0]

Hahaha, glad to be of help
I'm trying to remember what the official expensive glasses were on the Amiga. Someone said they looked like 'nerd welder goggles from planet Mongo' compared to Sega's 'Snoopy's Joe Cool glasses'. There was at least one demo 3D game for it, which worked with my setup. EDIT: I remembered, they were the Haitex X-Specs 3D.

The price is why I got the Sega glasses and made my own interface, using a design I found online. I rendered some stuff in Imagine for it, which looked really cool.

Yep, found some info on the Haitex, Famicom, and Sega glasses. Interestingly, it looks like there was actually Pioneer LaserActive glasses as well (and boy do those get expensive on eBay). Looks like there is a brand of ASUS glasses that are compatible with Sega/Nintendo/Amiga. However, the interface box for each of these is different. I wonder how much is really different, electrically, other than the console interface side. Would be interesting if we could build some sort of universal interface, like a pi-hat or something that would accept all the compatible glasses, and could select which system interface box to emulate, and then of course connect to MiSTer.

Perhaps we should open a request thread in the development forum?

[LamerDeluxe]

Hahaha, glad to be of help
I'm trying to remember what the official expensive glasses were on the Amiga. Someone said they looked like 'nerd welder goggles from planet Mongo' compared to Sega's 'Snoopy's Joe Cool glasses'. There was at least one demo 3D game for it, which worked with my setup. EDIT: I remembered, they were the Haitex X-Specs 3D.

The price is why I got the Sega glasses and made my own interface, using a design I found online. I rendered some stuff in Imagine for it, which looked really cool.

Yep, found some info on the Haitex, Famicom, and Sega glasses. Interestingly, it looks like there was actually Pioneer LaserActive glasses as well (and boy do those get expensive on eBay). Looks like there is a brand of ASUS glasses that are compatible with Sega/Nintendo/Amiga. However, the interface box for each of these is different. I wonder how much is really different, electrically, other than the console interface side. Would be interesting if we could build some sort of universal interface, like a pi-hat or something that would accept all the compatible glasses, and could select which system interface box to emulate, and then of course connect to MiSTer.

Perhaps we should open a request thread in the development forum?

Probably just responding to one signal of a game port and upping the voltage to the glasses to properly block the LCD shutters. I think a universal box would be possible.

[CartoonDonkey]

So, I've done a little experimentation with this. I happen to own a set of Haitex X-Specs, and they work on my Amiga 1200. I can start a game or what have you on the 1200 with x-specs attached there, and then start a game on the MiSTer and it sort of works. It falls out of sync, but it works for a period of time. Attaching the x-specs directly to the Mister using a usb to db9 adapter does not work when starting an x-specs capable Amiga title like Space Spuds.

It would be great to be able to build a universal box of some kind for them with a potentiometer for the timing / sync. Should be able to power them using a battery solution of some kind. Then you could have access, (if you had a crt) to some of the titles on Master System, Famicom etc..

Sega Master System seems to just turn on 3d when a 3d title is launched, other systems need to send a signal to the box to start lcd shutter glasses sync, which seems to be pal on the Amiga and SMS. Although like I said, the MiSTer and SMS fall out of sync after a second or two, then it rolls back into sync, and so forth...