Discussion of Thoughts From the Terasic Team

[caffeinekid]

This is why I got a pre-built setup. I wouldn't trust myself with all those pins and connectors. Thank you for posting Hazel, and congratulations to all at Terasic for creating a wonderful piece of kit that has made a lot of people very happy here via of Sorg and his magics, and all the core creators.

[aberu]

This is an important reminder to anyone considering purchasing an aliexpress or ebay addon board from an unknown seller. If they wire stuff up wrong you could potentially have a friend DE10-Nano on your hands. Thanks for posting this.

[pbsk8]

I bought from ali the parts and my de10 nano came with dent pins, but it was because inside the box there is not enough foam to keep everything still.

After being tossed around the package during transportation, the power suply might have done the dent.

at least I could undent it and it is working fine, 6 months using my mister a lot!

[toastboy]

Wonderful to see the terrasic team reach out to those of us who love Mister.

When we extend the DE-10 with addon parts we should always be respectful of the original manufacturer, and be honest with how a damaged board came to its current state.

A good example is set by @damopinn who detailed their own mistakes, and how to fix them, here :-

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=2834

We should help each other out of these holes, rather than putting pressure on the OEM.

[MikeS1]

Here's hoping for a collaboration between Terasic, Sorg, Rob, JT, Sergey.

MiSTer 2.0 is in your hands , I mean one day, the DE10 is still a great product with lots of room.

<3

[Origin]

I don't really see the point. Terasic/Altera decided to bring the board into beginners hands to grow their audience. Thus they massively subsidized the FPGA on that board. As a result it's simply not worth for anyone else to build a compatible end user device and they actually pretty much killed the original MIST board that way. This didn't happen by accident but someone decided to lower the price that way. What else did they expect to happen?

So now they face the result: They brought a development system to be used by "professionals" into the end users hands and are surprised that people do all kinds of things with it. Actually this device was never meant for end users. It doesn't even come with the necessary CE and WEEE markings and selling this to European end users is just illegal.

However, the solution is simple: Terasic could just build and sell a complete and cased MISTer compatible device.

It's their choice. But either way, they have to live with the result. Coming here and begging people not to destroy the board is kind of weird. Either they build a somewhat robust end user device or they build some fragile thing only meant for professionals. But giving a fragile device into end users hands and then complaining about support issues sounds like they don't understand the basics of their business.

[akeley]

Coming here and begging people not to destroy the board is kind of weird. Either they build a somewhat robust end user device or they build some fragile thing only meant for professionals. But giving a fragile device into end users hands and then complaining about support issues sounds like they don't understand the basics of their business.

Your claims are so bizarre, unwarranted, and most of all, unfair, that the only thing which springs to my mind is "trolling".

@Hazel W & the rest of the crew: sorry about that. I guess it takes all sorts, etc...

[Origin]

Your claims are so bizarre, unwarranted, and most of all, unfair

You can easily verify yourself if your DE10 Nano carries a CE certification mark and/or the WEEE logo. It's not cheap nor easy to meet the underlying requirements especially for a small business with a low volume device. This and the fact that the DE10 Nano is subsidized to be cheaper than its own FPGA alone has some consequences. Read e.g. here:

https://www.fpgaarcade.com/replay2-and- ... o-support/

You get a lot of FPGA for your money there, and Mister has been very successful. While Replay2 is the system that I want to own, it is going to be more expensive.

The replay cannot compete with the subsidized and CE-less DE10 Nano. Nor can the original MIST.

[Chris23235]

ver, the solution is simple: Terasic could just build and sell a complete and cased MISTer compatible device.

It's their choice. But either way, they have to live with the result. Coming here and begging people not to destroy the board is kind of weird. Either they build a somewhat robust end user device or they build some fragile thing only meant for professionals. But giving a fragile device into end users hands and then complaining about support issues sounds like they don't understand the basics of their business.

They are not begging for anything, they are giving some advices on how to handle the board regarding the SDRAM. I don't know in which world you live, in my world reaching out to a 3rd party forum to spread support information about your product is not begging, but reaching out to grant support.

Regarding your MiST argument, short answer it is nonsense because the MiST is still in production and it is widely available from other retailers besides Lotharek which indicates Lothrek currently has no plans to terminate the MiST anytime soon. Long answer, you don't seem to be familiar with the FPGA devices market in the slightest, otherwise you would be aware that there are several MiST clones (e.g. Mistica, Miss FPGA) that cost less then the MiST and there is even a entry level solution priced in the Pi4 range that can run every MiST core after recompiling the core (Sidi). The MiST and these devices exist, they cost way less then the MiSTer.

[FoxbatStargazer]

I have a hard time finding where there is stock of the cheap MiST clones these days. Maybe its because I'm looking at English pages though but these don't seem too accessible, which is a shame given the low price.

MiST itself seems to be a bit above the current price of a DE-10 nano, but at least it is complete and not requiring any addons.

[aberu]

Origin, most of your comment seems lifted from MasterOfGizmo's post --> https://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=115&t=32998

But it's still worth responding to.

I don't really see the point. Terasic/Altera decided to bring the board into beginners hands to grow their audience.

The target market aren't just random beginners. They sell these to educators who are teaching people who have already taken a series of electronics classes most likely, and they sell them primarily to students who are already in electrical engineering courses or some other digital logic associated courses.

As a result it's simply not worth for anyone else to build a compatible end user device and they actually pretty much killed the original MIST board that way. This didn't happen by accident but someone decided to lower the price that way. What else did they expect to happen?

Pretty sure MiST was nowhere near being on Terasic's or Intel's radar when the DE10-nano was released. Not even pretty sure, I'm 100% confident. This is just totally made up. They expected educators and students in electrical engineering and related fields to be using it. They expected people to RTFM. I'm not saying all MiSTer users should be expected to RTFM (they won't and don't always, it happens), but a student or educator will test these or expect their students to test them according to the instructions in the manual.

So now they face the result: They brought a development system to be used by "professionals" into the end users hands and are surprised that people do all kinds of things with it.

Nope, this is way under-powered as a device for professionals, it's for tinkerers, hobbyists, and above-all, students and classrooms.

Actually this device was never meant for end users. It doesn't even come with the necessary CE and WEEE markings and selling this to European end users is just illegal.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... d1e32-53-1 - Look under section 3 under Annex II. There might be some technical workaround or exception they are squeaking by into here. This mostly seems like consumer devices to me. But what do I know, maybe Mouser and other EU-based distributors have just been completely violating WEEE regulations for half a decade now. I doubt it, but it's possible, sure.

I'm unable to find a list for CE equivalent to this easily, at the moment, but I think there is enough ambiguity here to leave it open for interpretation (as someone who spends a part of my day, everyday, at my job interpreting ISO standards and things like that).

However, the solution is simple: Terasic could just build and sell a complete and cased MISTer compatible device.

There is zero reason they would want to do this. It would end up being costly to them to do this, designing and selling it. Then since the big company is deciding to target the end user, like you said, they would probably have to get extra regulatory standards to be met. Validation processes to meet or exceed customers' expectations, up front costs, development time, etc... All so they can appeal to like the 1% of people that buy a DE10-nano for MiSTer, and just so they can maybe capture a small percentage of that market. It's unrealistic.

Coming here and begging people not to destroy the board is kind of weird.

It's not weird. It's being proactive with their customers.

Either they build a somewhat robust end user device or they build some fragile thing only meant for professionals.

If you static shock your MiST or plug in the wrong power supply, the same thing will happen, so this is a moot point to talk about robustness of the end user device. And finally, their target end user are not MiSTer users, but they aren't exactly doing a laborious vetting of every single sale of their product, that would be inefficient.

[Chris23235]

I have a hard time finding where there is stock of the cheap MiST clones these days. Maybe its because I'm looking at English pages though but these don't seem too accessible, which is a shame given the low price.

MiST itself seems to be a bit above the current price of a DE-10 nano, but at least it is complete and not requiring any addons.

Manuferhi sells the Mistica and the Sidi, both are excellent entry level machines when it comes to FPGA. Both are currently out of stock, but from my experience Manuel builds them in batches that are sold every few months. Just drop him a line, when they will be available again.

In the meantime, the Miss FPGA is in stock at 8bits4ever right now.

[Blitzwing]

I don't really see the point. Terasic/Altera decided to bring the board into beginners hands to grow their audience. Thus they massively subsidized the FPGA on that board. As a result it's simply not worth for anyone else to build a compatible end user device and they actually pretty much killed the original MIST board that way. This didn't happen by accident but someone decided to lower the price that way. What else did they expect to happen?

So now they face the result: They brought a development system to be used by "professionals" into the end users hands and are surprised that people do all kinds of things with it. Actually this device was never meant for end users. It doesn't even come with the necessary CE and WEEE markings and selling this to European end users is just illegal.

However, the solution is simple: Terasic could just build and sell a complete and cased MISTer compatible device.

It's their choice. But either way, they have to live with the result. Coming here and begging people not to destroy the board is kind of weird. Either they build a somewhat robust end user device or they build some fragile thing only meant for professionals. But giving a fragile device into end users hands and then complaining about support issues sounds like they don't understand the basics of their business.

That's some weird and flawed logic you've got there. Not only is the De10 not a gaming device, it isn't even really intended to be for the average end user, it is a subsidised teaching device aimed squarely at Universities. The fact people are buying sometimes full MiSTer systems without a single clue what is really going on, or even worse buying third party add-ons from unscrupulous eBay sellers is not remotely Terasics fault, and I say that as somebody who doesn't have much interest in jumping to company 'x' defence normally.

If you look you'd see "For Intel FPGA University Program" emblazoned on the front of the box. Reaching out to the community and asking 'hey it is great that you've found this popular use for our products but just be careful, it isn't really designed as a consumer device' is not begging.

Edit. Hell it isn't even sold through normal consumer electronics channels if that isn't the biggest red flag to warn off the average user I don't know what is.

[Thedad]

Edit. Hell it isn't even sold through normal consumer electronics channels if that isn't the biggest red flag to warn off the average user I don't know what is.

This! I'm not an average user and was alerted at the way in which I had to buy the board.

Furthermore, I would also say that Terasic building a MiSTer compatible device would be asking for trouble. I like that it's aimed as a "University" board and is not mainstream.

[HappehLemons]

I don't really see the point. Terasic/Altera decided to bring the board into beginners hands to grow their audience. Thus they massively subsidized the FPGA on that board. As a result it's simply not worth for anyone else to build a compatible end user device and they actually pretty much killed the original MIST board that way. This didn't happen by accident but someone decided to lower the price that way. What else did they expect to happen?

So now they face the result: They brought a development system to be used by "professionals" into the end users hands and are surprised that people do all kinds of things with it. Actually this device was never meant for end users. It doesn't even come with the necessary CE and WEEE markings and selling this to European end users is just illegal.

However, the solution is simple: Terasic could just build and sell a complete and cased MISTer compatible device.

It's their choice. But either way, they have to live with the result. Coming here and begging people not to destroy the board is kind of weird. Either they build a somewhat robust end user device or they build some fragile thing only meant for professionals. But giving a fragile device into end users hands and then complaining about support issues sounds like they don't understand the basics of their business.

This is such a weirdly combative & unfriendly response to company that is just trying to help its userbase. While I don't know much about the Terasic team, this kind of response is embarrassing to read and also to this community which they're just trying to prevent people from wasting their money. I highly doubt the Terasic team is giving up refunds to those who fry misuse and fry devices, so why not send out a PSA?

"They don't understand the basics of their business"
"Begging people not to destroy their device"
"Selling this is just illegal"

You should revaluate how you communicate on here, because if there's any good point in here it's overshadowed by your awful attitude. This is a good example why companies don't engage with their communities.

[annette]

You should revaluate how you communicate on here, because if there's any good point in here it's overshadowed by your awful attitude.

I agree, my thought is

Origin = MasterOfGizmo = Till Harbaum (creator of Mist)

[ToothbrushThreepwood]

You should revaluate how you communicate on here, because if there's any good point in here it's overshadowed by your awful attitude.

I agree, my thought is

Origin = MasterOfGizmo = Till Harbaum (creator of Mist)

MiST and Till are awesome. This thread perfectly illustrates how MiSTer users probably make up 90% of unqualified idiots among de10-nano users despite only accounting for a few percent of overall users.
And I count myself among those 90%.
Just let it die.

[annette]

You should revaluate how you communicate on here, because if there's any good point in here it's overshadowed by your awful attitude.

I agree, my thought is

Origin = MasterOfGizmo = Till Harbaum (creator of Mist)

MiST and Till are awesome. This thread perfectly illustrates how MiSTer users probably make up 90% of unqualified idiots among de10-nano users despite only accounting for a few percent of overall users.
And I count myself among those 90%.
Just let it die.

I agree and i still am a happy Mist owner.

but i find it odd to specifically join this forum and only comment in this thread started by Terasic. it looked to me as a misplaced case of sour grapes, is maybe the correct expression.

overall just odd behaviour imo.

[lake_lagunita]

Hi, I am a new bee and I only have a DE10-standard. Is it OK to use DE10-standard instead of DE10-nano? thanks.

[LamerDeluxe]

Hi, I am a new bee and I only have a DE10-standard. Is it OK to use DE10-standard instead of DE10-nano? thanks.

That is quite a necro-bump

Cores have to be ported specifically for the DE10 Standard. There's a whole (old) topic about it here: https://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=33067

Later on in that topic there are some links to cores that have been ported.

It does not have an HDMI connector, though VGA to HDMI adapters should work.