Atari 7800 / 2600

[skooter]

I don't get what is the big deal of having the ROMs in the same folder. My 7800 folder has three zip files:

@Atari 2600 2021-04-06.zip
@Atari 7800 2021-04-26.zip
Trebors_7800_ROM_PROPack_v3_8.zip

It is just an extra step to select the zip I want before navigating its structure.

For the SMS core, I created three subfolders: Game Gear, Master System, SG-1000.

[skooter]

On a second thought, regarding the settings, then I can see that we may have issues like:
- different optimal resolutions (atrac17 video modes) for SMS and Game Gear
- different scanlines/shadow masks/etc. settings for SMS and Game Gear

[thorr]

Just a tip I copied my 2600 Rom folder into the 7800 folder with the title "0 Atari 2600" so I can easily get to my roms .

I did the opposite: moved the 2600 ROMs to the root of the core folder, and made a folder within that named "7800" for the 7800 ROMs

I like to put my favorite games in the root of the core folder for easy access, then have subfolders for organization such as paddle games, all 7800 games, all 2600 games, supercharger, homegrown, etc. I haven't done this for this core yet, but plan to.

[LamerDeluxe]

On a second thought, regarding the settings, then I can see that we may have issues like:
- different optimal resolutions (atrac17 video modes) for SMS and Game Gear
- different scanlines/shadow masks/etc. settings for SMS and Game Gear

That is exactly the problem I have with the combined SMS + Game Gear core. Those machines use completely different types of displays.

[Kitrinx]

On a second thought, regarding the settings, then I can see that we may have issues like:
- different optimal resolutions (atrac17 video modes) for SMS and Game Gear
- different scanlines/shadow masks/etc. settings for SMS and Game Gear

That is exactly the problem I have with the combined SMS + Game Gear core. Those machines use completely different types of displays.

yall are aware that 7800 actually played 2600 games right? It's not two systems mashed together, it's original behavior. 2600 also uses effectively random resolutions and framerates, because they were controlled by the programmers, no amount of modelines will save you. Video stabilization does attempt to make it very close to what the 7800 outputs though, so the same settings should apply with 7800 in low res mode.

[skooter]

I'm aware. The issues I mentioned are specific of the SMS/Game Gear core. Though they are also not two systems mashed together as Game Gear runs Master System games natively.

[LamerDeluxe]

On a second thought, regarding the settings, then I can see that we may have issues like:
- different optimal resolutions (atrac17 video modes) for SMS and Game Gear
- different scanlines/shadow masks/etc. settings for SMS and Game Gear

That is exactly the problem I have with the combined SMS + Game Gear core. Those machines use completely different types of displays.

yall are aware that 7800 actually played 2600 games right? It's not two systems mashed together, it's original behavior. 2600 also uses effectively random resolutions and framerates, because they were controlled by the programmers, no amount of modelines will save you. Video stabilization does attempt to make it very close to what the 7800 outputs though, so the same settings should apply with 7800 in low res mode.

I am, I am fine with the 2600 and 7800 being a combined core (the 7800 is an extended 2600, like you explained before) and named as such. My point was that with the SMS and Game Gear you will usually want different settings because they use completely different types of displays.

[Chris23235]

I am, I am fine with the 2600 and 7800 being a combined core (the 7800 is an extended 2600, like you explained before) and named as such. My point was that with the SMS and Game Gear you will usually want different settings because they use completely different types of displays.

I think Kitrinx point was that this is not a combined core, the difference is in the wording. The 7800 core replicates the 7800 hardware. There is nothing combined into the core from another machine.

[LamerDeluxe]

I am, I am fine with the 2600 and 7800 being a combined core (the 7800 is an extended 2600, like you explained before) and named as such. My point was that with the SMS and Game Gear you will usually want different settings because they use completely different types of displays.

I think Kitrinx point was that this is not a combined core, the difference is in the wording. The 7800 core replicates the 7800 hardware. There is nothing combined into the core from another machine.

I'm saying that because the idea is to replace the 2600 core with the 7800 core. In that case it is handy to name it the 2600/7800 core, for people who aren't aware that the 7800 can play 2600 games perfectly. And 2600 should probably come first, as that's the most well known machine.

[redsteakraw]

yall are aware that 7800 actually played 2600 games right? It's not two systems mashed together, it's original behavior. 2600 also uses effectively random resolutions and framerates, because they were controlled by the programmers, no amount of modelines will save you. Video stabilization does attempt to make it very close to what the 7800 outputs though, so the same settings should apply with 7800 in low res mode.

Sorry, maybe this was an inappropriate place to air the conversation as it is bigger and not necessarily tied to this core. Most here would agree that the core you built is running and designed as it should, the 7800 is a 2600 with extra bits and you built that. It also is backwards compatible and you built that, you went above and beyond what most people expected and really made a solid core. This conversation is a broader conversation for how MiSTer handles large cores that span multiple systems. Obviously maintaining separate code bases would be needless and silly. In certain circumstances some amount of settings based separation may be warranted but this discussion may be more appropriate elsewhere.

[MiSTer_Kirk]

Obviously maintaining separate code bases would be needless and silly.

No more silly than the many arcade cores, or the many computer cores, or the many consoles cores, or the utterly pointless ScummVM core - but it exists.
Nobody here has the right to right-off THE most iconic console of all time. NOBODY. You don't get to say what gets deleted or not.
Since everyone has their own ideas, here is one. How about porting all the 2600 fixes BACK to the actual 2600 core ? Why delete the 2600 core just because it's a bit of "Maintenance" ? The 7800 is NOT, and never will be a 2600 - it doesn't deserve that status. Yes, it plays 2600 games, but so what ?
It was late to a release, nobody at Atari really wanted it, the public certainly didn't want it, and by the time it actually got a release it was so damn dated you have to question why Atari bothered, other than just to get rid of all that unsold stock. The 7800 should have gone to the same New Mexico landfill site as E.T. and buried in a few thousand tonnes of concrete.
Too many here think they can dictate how this project goes, and what everyone else has to use. This forum is full of a-holes who think they know best. Clue, you DON'T, so kindly keep your "opinions" to yourself.

[dmckean]

Since everyone has their own ideas, here is one. How about porting all the 2600 fixes BACK to the actual 2600 core ?

The 7800 core is written in verilog and the 2600 core is VHDL so that's never going to happen. The 7800 is just a 2600 with an extra graphics chip.

A lot of effort was put into 2600 functionality for this this core by Kitrinx and alanswx, let's not worry so much about what it's named.

[Kitrinx]

Obviously maintaining separate code bases would be needless and silly.

No more silly than the many arcade cores, or the many computer cores, or the many consoles cores, or the utterly pointless ScummVM core - but it exists.
Nobody here has the right to right-off THE most iconic console of all time. NOBODY. You don't get to say what gets deleted or not.
Since everyone has their own ideas, here is one. How about porting all the 2600 fixes BACK to the actual 2600 core ? Why delete the 2600 core just because it's a bit of "Maintenance" ? The 7800 is NOT, and never will be a 2600 - it doesn't deserve that status. Yes, it plays 2600 games, but so what ?
It was late to a release, nobody at Atari really wanted it, the public certainly didn't want it, and by the time it actually got a release it was so damn dated you have to question why Atari bothered, other than just to get rid of all that unsold stock. The 7800 should have gone to the same New Mexico landfill site as E.T. and buried in a few thousand tonnes of concrete.
Too many here think they can dictate how this project goes, and what everyone else has to use. This forum is full of a-holes who think they know best. Clue, you DON'T, so kindly keep your "opinions" to yourself.

I can only conclude this post is some kind of attempt to start drama, but I will address one thing:
The way my core is written, if you back ported all the parts of it that improve upon the 2600, you would just end up with the 7800 core, with maria and the control register disabled. I personally wouldn't be willing to maintain such a needless extra thing. It would be really pointless. My two cents is that the 2600 core being retired would be beneficial for avoiding confusion. Even if someone else built a 2600-only version of my code, users and other devs alike would end up working with a core that is not being maintained by the author of the code, and consequently lagging in features and fixes.

[Moondandy]

How easy is it to make a symlink that appears in the console cores list as "Atari 2600" and it just opens the 7800 core?

[MiSTer_Kirk]

I can only conclude this post is some kind of attempt to start drama, but I will address one thing:
The way my core is written, if you back ported all the parts of it that improve upon the 2600, you would just end up with the 7800 core, with maria and the control register disabled. I personally wouldn't be willing to maintain such a needless extra thing. It would be really pointless. My two cents is that the 2600 core being retired would be beneficial for avoiding confusion. Even if someone else built a 2600-only version of my code, users and other devs alike would end up working with a core that is not being maintained by the author of the code, and consequently lagging in features and fixes.

I appreciate all the work you have done, the core is very good. My point wasn't aimed at you personally, it's aimed at those who want to end the 2600 core, and basically erase the 2600 from history. It's THE most iconic console ever, and it's going nowhere, despite the idiots here who want to end it's only core. I appreciate the explanation of why you can't port back your code, but your ideas that you put into the core could surely be put into the 2600 core ?
Obviously, that would have to be taken up by someone else, but lets not just erase the core just because. Like a few have already said, there will be many who have never heard of the 7800, or even know it can play 2600 games, so with no 2600 core how are they to know how to play 2600 games ?

Like I have said before, this is supposed to be a preservation project, not a popularity project. I mean, what is next for the chopping block ? Sega hardware ? Just because one system can play another system's games ?

[Chris23235]

Obviously maintaining separate code bases would be needless and silly.

No more silly than the many arcade cores, or the many computer cores, or the many consoles cores, or the utterly pointless ScummVM core - but it exists.
Nobody here has the right to right-off THE most iconic console of all time. NOBODY. You don't get to say what gets deleted or not.
Since everyone has their own ideas, here is one. How about porting all the 2600 fixes BACK to the actual 2600 core ? Why delete the 2600 core just because it's a bit of "Maintenance" ? The 7800 is NOT, and never will be a 2600 - it doesn't deserve that status. Yes, it plays 2600 games, but so what ?
It was late to a release, nobody at Atari really wanted it, the public certainly didn't want it, and by the time it actually got a release it was so damn dated you have to question why Atari bothered, other than just to get rid of all that unsold stock. The 7800 should have gone to the same New Mexico landfill site as E.T. and buried in a few thousand tonnes of concrete.
Too many here think they can dictate how this project goes, and what everyone else has to use. This forum is full of a-holes who think they know best. Clue, you DON'T, so kindly keep your "opinions" to yourself.

Feel free to port the 2600 fixes BACK to the actual 2600 core. It's open source. And besides, we get it, you hate the 7800 with a passion, but maybe, just maybe could you stop inserting this hate for the system into every single post?

I appreciate all the work you have done, the core is very good. My point wasn't aimed at you personally, it's aimed at those who want to end the 2600 core, and basically erase the 2600 from history. It's THE most iconic console ever, and it's going nowhere, despite the idiots here who want to end it's only core

This becomes ridiculous.

[KremlingKuthroat19]

Isn’t a workaround for all this to simply rename the 7800 core to “Atari 7800 /2600” like this thread to not confuse people?

I totally get the idea that the 2600 is iconic and needs to be acknowledged, but you gotta think from a standard user perspective, it is confusing that there’s a lesser core out there that will confuse standard users. Kitrinx will probably get many messages requesting Supercharger support from new users for the 2600 core when it already exists on the 7800 core. I can see how quickly annoying that can get.

TLDR: Retire the 2600 core and rename the 7800 core to “Atari 7800 /2600” and everyone wins.

[eewoke]

I can only conclude this post is some kind of attempt to start drama, but I will address one thing:
The way my core is written, if you back ported all the parts of it that improve upon the 2600, you would just end up with the 7800 core, with maria and the control register disabled. I personally wouldn't be willing to maintain such a needless extra thing. It would be really pointless. My two cents is that the 2600 core being retired would be beneficial for avoiding confusion. Even if someone else built a 2600-only version of my code, users and other devs alike would end up working with a core that is not being maintained by the author of the code, and consequently lagging in features and fixes.

This makes perfect sense. Let’s use this core for both and retire the 2600 core. Even renaming the 7800 core to 7800-2600 or something similar I do not mind. Maintaining this great core is what is most important. Thanks Kitrinx for creating again a very good core. Very much appreciated!

[MiSTer_Kirk]

But not as ridiculous as wanting to erase an iconic system from the Mister's cores, just because one system plays another.
I mean, the stupid argument, earlier on the thread, regarding the Sega Game Gear, and the Master System - both COMPLETELY different systems. One is a handheld with an LCD, one is a console that connects to a CRT. The Game Gear cannot use light guns, or other peripherals that came out for the Master System, so that stupid argument about making the GC into one core is moot, and irrelevant.

but maybe, just maybe could you stop inserting this hate for the system into every single post?

I will stop when morons stop trying to dictate how this project is ran. Yes, I never liked the 7800, but that doesn't mean I want to scrap a 7800 core. The 2600 deserves respect, so show it some.

[skooter]

You're being overly aggressive here. People are entitled to give their opinions in an Internet forum whether you like it or not.

I get it, Atari 2600 is your favorite system. It was my first system and I care a lot about it. But I won't act like someone is cursing my mother just because he/she is suggesting the old core is retired.

The important thing is Kitrinx did a wonderful job in the 7800 core and it runs all the 2600 games that it is supposed to run without any bugs I could find so far. This is more important for preservation than a core name. She could rename it to Polymega and I would still use it.

Notice that you are the one with behavior matching the names you are calling others.

[thorr]

I am confused. Am I an idiot, a moron, just stupid, or a combination of these? I think (my opinion here, not dictating anything) the Atari 7800 core is enough for both the 7800 and 2600 since they are the same parts/logic with additional parts in the 7800 and they have the same identical display and sound output when doing 2600 stuff. The MiSTer is not and never will be a real 7800 or 2600, so the only real difference in the cores would be the additional functionality of the 7800. I think (again an opinion here) the Game Gear and the SMS should be separate cores since they have different displays and who knows if the Game Gear is really 100% compatible with an SMS. I think (again an opinion) that calling the core 7800 / 2600 is the best way since it is a 7800 core so that name should come first, but add 2600 so people who don't know better will be able to find it.

[Lightwave]

Just a reminder, anyone can use names.txt to easily rename any core to whatever they wish.

Just needs to be done once; persists through updates.

[Pulsar]

↑↑↑
We have a winner, and more importantly, someone who gets it!

By the way, if we're all pulling hairs here guys, why is it even called the 2600 anyway and not the more appropriately named VCS?

[rhester72]

Maybe it's always been the 2600 Jr. core and we just didn't realize?

[thorr]

What about the Atari 2700 and Atari 2800? We need those cores!

[Hetzen]

Or a four switch 2600 core and a six switch 2600 core.

[thorr]

Finally got around to trying a few things. I built my own high quality paddle using a GRS spinner and added a second button to the top that is easy to hit with my left hand index finger. The main button is in the same spot as a normal Atari Paddle that I press with my left thumb.

dixzwNI.jpeg (737.39 KiB) Viewed 20248 times

I adjusted the sensitivity by putting this line into my MiSTer.ini. It uses a half turn of the spinner for a complete left to right which feels pretty good:
spinner_throttle=50

It plays amazingly well with no typical paddle jitter. It's better than real paddles, which in a way takes away from the authenticity, but at the same time it is amazing. However, I noticed a few things:
- In most games, I have to first move the paddle, then press the paddle button. If I do it the other way around, it doesn't work right. When moving the paddle, it says "Paddle 1A Assigned", then when pressing the button, it says "Paddle 1B Assigned".
- In some games like Star Wars Jedi Arena and Street Racer, I need to swap paddles in the core. I assume this is how it is on a real Atari also, so no biggie.
- The mouse is separate. Moving the mouse does not move the paddle. This is both a surprise and a good thing.
- It does not work as a driving controller. There does not seem to be a way to make it use this device. It automatically is using the mouse and it is buggy when doing that.
- In the Atari 7800 Homebrew Arkanoid by Chunkypixel, I have to press the button first, then move the paddle for it to work right. If I do it the other way around, it doesn't work right. This is the opposite of most games.
- Again in Arkanoid, if I move the paddle all the way to the right, the thing at the bottom shakes like crazy between the far right and the middle of the screen.
- Occasionally and randomly, the spinner just dies right in the middle of my game, like it is disconnected. To fix it, I need to unplug it and plug it back in. I don't need to restart the MiSTer. This is really annoying, and I am not sure if it is caused by a defect in the GRS spinner or something else.

-------

actually-official "mr spinner" compatible adapters

Also, I made a Mr. Spinner real paddles adapter. I soldered the black wire inside the paddles to the third pin of the potentiometer as instructed. This device has major issues. I tried with and without "#define PADDLE_EMU" commented out but it made no difference.
- When connected to my Windows PC, two devices show up as expected. The button on each works as expected. However, as soon as I move a paddle, it crashes the device and says it is not connected properly. After a moment, it reconnects and has the same behavior again.
- When connected to my MiSTer, it locks up the whole thing. I can't move through the menu with my keyboard, etc.
- If I don't connect the paddles, but just connect the Mr. Spinner adapter, it doesn't cause problems. It becomes a problem once I connect the paddles.

I am not sure if I need to change the code for the paddles or use it as is. I am not sure what is causing the problem.

[Kitrinx]

It sounds like the GRS is emulating a joystick rather than the mouse, or perhaps has special support. I don't know why it's disconnecting for you, perhaps a wire is loose?

Remember how paddles are assigned: controllers with analog sticks and spinners do it based on moving them to an extreme value, mouse assigns by pressing the button. Maybe that GRS is doing both, using a mouse button with an absolute analog stick? I don't have one so it's hard to say.

Driving controllers require infinite movement devices. I haven't added spinner input to them yet since I don't have a framework spinner to test with at the moment, but mice work. Analog sticks/paddles can't work because they are finite. Right now driving controllers are too sensitive, and I will tweak them soon.

As for mr. spinner, it seems like perhaps something is wrong in how you set it up, that's clearly not correct behavior.

[thorr]

It sounds like the GRS is emulating a joystick rather than the mouse, or perhaps has special support.

Thanks for your feedback and help. The GRS is definitely an infinite spinner, not emulating a joystick. It works in other cores as a spinner. If I hook it up to a Windows PC, it moves the mouse cursor left and right, and the two buttons are left and right click. It is not that big of a deal to me the way it is behaving in the 7800 core since I can make it work at least. I just need to find the secret sauce in each game.

I will have to do some more digging and testing with the Mr. Spinner device. Perhaps the black button wire is not actually the ground wire inside my Gemini branded paddles and I need to use the other (brown) button wire. Who knows...

[thorr]

It sounds like the GRS is emulating a joystick rather than the mouse, or perhaps has special support. I don't know why it's disconnecting for you, perhaps a wire is loose?

As for mr. spinner, it seems like perhaps something is wrong in how you set it up, that's clearly not correct behavior.

Well, I am happy to say I solved both of my problems. However, this uncovered new problems.

It turns out the problem with the GRS spinner disconnecting randomly was due to a flakey USB port in my custom built NES Pi 4 MiSTer case. I used a different port and it worked perfectly without disconnecting. I will have to see if I can fix the flakey USB port.

I got the Mr. Spinner to work by reversing the two wires inside the paddles that were originally there connected to the potentiometers. Originally it didn't matter the order of the two wires that went to the potentiometer pins since they were in series. However, adding the ground wire to the third pin made the polarity matter on the first two pins and they were backwards in both paddles.

Regarding the new issues with the Mr. Spinner:
- The two paddles influence each other. This is easy to see in Kaboom in game mode 2 (2-players, one at a time). If I move the main controller for player one, it will move back and forth almost the whole range. If I move the other paddle for player two during player one's turn, player one moves slightly. If I move player two's paddle all the way to the left, I can't get player one to move all the way to the right (until I move player two's paddle all the way to the right). The same happens with player two being influenced by player one's paddle. I checked in Windows and it has the same problem. This is a problem with the Mr. Spinner Arduino code, not the 7800 core.
- The full range of the paddle is used. On a real Atari, only a portion of the paddle range gets used, and it varies from game to game which portion of the paddle gets used. In Kaboom, I have to move the paddle very far back and forth compared to a real Atari. From what I recall the 2600daptor D9 gets this right, but only currently works with one player with the core since it is a single two-axis device instead of two single axis devices like the Mr. Spinner.

As of right now, using the GRS spinner is preferred because I can adjust the sensitivity with the spinner_throttle value so it feels right when playing games. I don't have this option with the paddles.