Moondandy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:25 pm
Ash has been talking in the discord about working on the core again and some others are hopefully going to help him, so fingers crossed we see some progress.
I have raised a ticket for the BIOS getter script to grab the jaguar BIOS, so hopefully they add that which would make things easier for people wanting to try out the core.
Great to hear, I was worried he'd given up on it given it hadn't been updated for a while. But Ash seems to move between projects fairly quickly so glad to see he's potentially moving back
I stupidly sold my Jag and games many years ago for very little money. I miss Tempest 2000 - Jag version is the best, and emulation is still not very good AFAIK. A good Jag core for MiSTer would be great.
I still check this thread to see if the core will be ever updated. I really hope someone decides to complete it. Considering how expensive the real hardware goes for now... it would be amazing to play Jag on the Mister.
Yeah tbh, the best way to view MiSTer cores is as a process of elimination. With Saturn, PS1, and NGPC cores being worked on right now, that only leaves the Jaguar, 3DO, 32X, Virtual Boy, CD-i, PC-FX and debatably the Neo Geo CD as the last major consoles without a core (that can fit on MiSTer). The first 4 are the most appealing with the CD-i, PC-FX, and Neo Geo CD being less appealing.
Given the similarities between the 32X and Saturn, wouldn't be surprised if that's the next project srg320 decides to tackle. After that, 3DO and Jaguar are the most appealing. As much as I shitpost about wanting the 3DO as a core, which I unironically do want, Jaguar is more important for the time being. I've heard that there are only 20K Jaguar CDs out there so getting a Jaguar CD preserved in FPGA is really important for preservation sake, especially considering how notoriously faulty the Jag CD is. Plus, it'd be great to have the whole Atari console family on MiSTer.
I've said this repeatedly, but one of the unique selling points of the MiSTer could be preserving consoles that aren't well emulated. Getting great Saturn, Jaguar/CD, 3DO, CD-i, and 32X emulation would be so cool and give playing on MiSTer that greater feeling of authenticity over software emulation.
KremlingKuthroat19 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 6:44 am
I've said this repeatedly, but one of the unique selling points of the MiSTer could be preserving consoles that aren't well emulated. Getting great Saturn, Jaguar/CD, 3DO, CD-i, and 32X emulation would be so cool and give playing on MiSTer that greater feeling of authenticity over software emulation.
Aren't the reasons for lack of FPGA core similar to the reasons for lack of good software emulators... Limited interest and knowledge? Heck it seems software emulators are more often a starting point for good FPGA cores than the "its not emulation" crowd might like to admit.
Emulators are definitely a help for many devs when making a core, and it is true that 5th gen emulation is lacking.
May as well chat through the odds and sods 4th and 5th gen cores since we have gone down that road here, so running through the 4th and 5th gen not on MiSTer here is what there is and some notes (keep in mind I am not a dev, but have marked * ones I own). Have taken list from The Game Console 2.0 book, which I just got and it's great.
Fourth Generation:
Interactive Vision -VHS system, educational, only a few games, if Action Max happens then may be low hanging fruit for someone.
Gamate
-Cheapo Asian handheld (on the NT Mini) could be done by a dev within a few days.
Hartung Game Master -Another cheapo Asian handheld (not on the NT Mini) not sure if there is much info out there on this one but if there was could likely be done by a dev within a few days.
Amstrad GX4000* -Surprised no UK devs have looked at this one, but could potentially have support added to Amstrad CPC core, would be interested to hear a dev who knows the system weigh in on this one.
Commodore CDTV -As far as I understand it, if someone adds in CD read and Red Book Audio support to the Amiga core then this should be supported, or close to it.
Neo Geo CD* -Furrtek did quite a bit of work on this previously, and there is even code for it in the Neo Geo core, but hit issues and hasn't come back to it since. Hopefully he does one day, but he spends a lot of his time decapping and tracing out chips which is very useful to the wider community.
Philips CDi -This seems like it would be a very large undertaking, so would need to be a passion project for an experience dev so I am not holding my breath. I also don't think it shares much with other consoles, however Ash was looking at it so his work may help pave the way for a core one day (like he has done for Jaguar).
Memorex VIS -a system from Tandy similar to the CDTV and CDi that I am guessing most people reading have never heard of, is more a computer in a set-top box than a console, and I don't think it shares too many parts with other things. Maybe a dev who likes doing computer cores may be interested one day, but again I really would not hold my breath on this one ever happening.
Watara Supervision -Yet another cheapo Asian handheld. This one is on the NT Mini and there is actually a playable alpha core of it from Pierco, that runs pretty well. It wouldn't take much to get this core cleaned up and released so hopefully it happens in the not too distant future.
Mega Duck -More of a meme than a consoles, but it is yet another cheapo Asian handheld that is on the NT Mini Noir. If we are lucky maybe we will get this one for April Fools, if only to stop people memeing about it in the discord.
Pioneer Laseractive -This is a really big question mark. Laserdisc games in general really do need to be preserved, but what it would take to get a Laserdisc games system running on FPGA and how games would be preserved and loaded I just don't know, and sadly I don't think any dev has really dug into it either.
Fifth Generation:
Sega 32X*
-Assuming that Saturn is doable (which is looking likely) then 32X feels inevitable, as a lot of the groundwork is done in creating the Saturn core. Hopefully srg320 already plans to move on to it next.
FM Towns Marty -Puu san, who has done the initial cores of the Japanese computers x68000, PC-88 and PC-98 is currently working on an FM Towns core, which is essentially the computer version of the FM Towns Marty. Assuming he pulls it off, then some of the western devs here take what he has done and get it running well on the MiSTer, then adding support for FM Towns games should be very doable into the core, possibly even trivial. However I would not expect to be playing FM Towns Marty games on an official MiSTer core for a couple of years.
Amiga CD32 -Like with the CDTV, if someone adds in CD read and Red Book Audio support to the Amiga core then this should be supported, or close to it.
3DO* -The effort to do this core will be on par with the PS1, so it would take a top tier dev a lot of work to do this one which is also not emulated well. Maybe Robert will take it on one day, as it will look more appealing once PS1 and Saturn are done, but who knows. It would be a nice system to get for sure.
Atari Jaguar -This does feel inevitable that someone will pick up the work Ash did and have a proper go at it, but there are some difficult chips in there to do and it would be a lot of work. My understanding is if there is a working core then it wouldn't require much more than being able to read CDs to be added to get Jaguar CD support - it's more a disc reader rather than a full console like the Mega CD. There is a big homebrew community for the Jaguar CD and the consoles are so expensive and junky, it would be great to get the Jag and CD preserved.
Bandai Playdia* -This was a CD systems aimed at kids in Japan and was more a glorified VCD player than anything else. I suspect it would be a lot of work to get a core for it, and I can't see anyone wanting to spend the time doing it - unless it shares chips with something else which I don't think it does. Maybe one day...
NEC PC-FX* -This I am much more hopeful for, I would take good odds on this being on MiSTer within the next couple of years. Virtual Boy would pave the way for it, and although it will not be trivial to do, and the library is very Japanese FMV centric, there are interesting things in there (it's not just hentai games, which is a lazy and unfair assessment). I know David has an interest in the system, and in terms of localisations it is a near untapped mine of games that hopefully we will see more from in the future. A betting man would put a few quid on this being one 5th gen core we do get in the next couple of years.
Virtual Boy -Robert has mentioned he could be interested in doing a 2D version of this core, which personally I think would be great, so hopefully he decides to look at it in the future after PS1. As mentioned one chip is also used by the PC-FX, so would be a stepping stone to that.
Tiger R-Zone -This is a rather odd handheld that you had a screen in a visor, I don't think it is terribly complex, but I also don't know if it shares chips with anything else and nobody has expressed any interest in it, so I wouldn't hold your breath on this one.
Super A'can -Here is a real curio. A Taiwanese system that is impossibly hard and ridiculously expensive to get these days, that is sort of a bastard child between the SNES and Mega Drive, but only got 12 (not very good) games. It has been said that to make a core for this would require as much effort as making the SNES core. I know that Kevtris has said he has three of them and it is the system he would most like to make a core for if he had the time, although that doesn't help MiSTer community much. That being said, someone has sent the chips to Furrtek who has decapped them, so someone out there is possibly interested in this system. Maybe someone in touch with Furrtek could ask him who sent the chips and what for (maybe it is for Mame). This systems has a big question mark against it, but I am not expecting it any time soon if at all.
Casio Loopy* -The Japanese cartridge based system with a handful of games, all targeted at Japanese school girls and had a built in sticker printer. Such a bizarre system and ultimate failure. I don't see anyone stepping up to take this one on, and I think it has unique chips so would be a lot of work.
Nintendo 64* -This isn't doable on the DE-10 nano. We all wish it was but it just isn't.
Apple Pippin -Another console that is more a meme than anything else, that I do aspire to own in the next few years. The only way I could see this happening is if someone does a 90s Apple computer core and it's possible to add support to run the Pippin, but I don't know if that is even feasible. Also considering that nobody has added support for CDTV and CD32 into the Amiga core yet, if there were such an Apple core would anyone put the effort in to support it? Highly unlikely we will ever get this.
Tiger Game.com -Yet another dodgy Asian handheld, Kevtris hasn't done this one, which makes me think there may not be much info out there on it but if there was someone could make a core fairly quickly if they were so inclined.
Neo Geo Pocket -We will have an unofficial core from Jotego relatively soon, although who knows when it will be available to non patrons. Personally I really dislike the idea of there being unofficial console cores and I hope someone just takes the code and makes their own official core of it.
There may be some obscure ones I have missed, and I haven't covered 6th Gen as can assume these aren't doable, or nobody would be interested in the work for any that are, certainly not any time soon.
These are just my thoughts on things, but would love to hear some insight from anyone who has any on any of these systems and how doable or not doable they would be, or to flag up any I have missed. It is a era of gaming I am interested in as there are a lot of systems and games I never explored, and have been picking up a few in the past couple of years.
I think the next 12-24 months could be very interesting if someone decides to take on the challenge of a Jaguar/Jaguar CD core, as currently there are no software emulators which will play the full library from the system.
Excellent writeup moondandy! Regarding consoles that could work on FPGA, the 6th gen handhelds would all work on MiSTer I believe. The N-Gage is on par with the PS1 in terms of power. The biggest problem with that console would be implementing the Symbian OS. Pokemon Mini would also be a fairly easy console to implement as well as the GP32, the Tapwave Zodiac, the Game King and maybe the GP2X. Kitrinx mentioned that the Nuon wouldn't fit on MiSTer.
I'd also add the Game & Watch to your list. It's technically not really a console, but a handheld line since there's no interchangeable cartridges. Pierco did some preliminary work and Kitrinx showed a lot of interest in the project. There's some other 2nd-3rd gen consoles too that are missing such as the Epoch Cassette and Super Cassette Vision, the Milton Bradley Microvision, the Adventure Vision, the CreatiVision, Bandai Super Vision 8000, the APF Imagination Machine, The RCA Studio II, and the first console, the Magnavox Odyssey.
Most of the consoles I listed above fall into the very obscure realm, but since we already have a VC4000 core as well as an Emerson Arcadia 2001 core, I'd say that you can't get much more obscure than that.
In terms of lowest hangest fruit, meaning easiest core to implement, it'd definitely be the Amiga CD32. The entire base is there with the exception of the CD drive implementation and the Akiko chip. If we get Amiga CD32 working, then that'll also cover the CDTV since I believe it's fully backwards compatible so it's a 2 for 1 deal like the Atari 7800. Creating a fork of the existing Amiga core with the CD and Akkiko implementation is all that'd be needed to be done. I created a thread regarding the Amiga CD32 for those interested: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1741
No worries guys, I am very interested in old consoles so enjoy writing and talking about them. I might make a new thread in the new year and do a more comprehensive list from 1st gen to 6th gen, there are a whole load of weird and wonderful consoles out there that aren't very well known, this list just covers ones labelled as 4the and 5th gen. There are still a lot of early consoles that are very much doable, if developers were inclined, but they don't have the vast libraries of top tier games like the major consoles already covered. That doesn't mean they are without merit or historical importance though.
I think there is a good chance we will get Epoch Cassette Vision and Super Cassette Vision. They don't seem too complex and preservation work has been done recently dumping carts. I wouldn't be surprised if they were on Pierco's radar.
Call me a blind optimist, but I feel like most things will be preserved in FPGA eventually. Remember that FPGA or hardware emulation is in it's infancy (around 5-10 years). Look how far we've come already! It's insane. What was once a project aimed to simply preserve Amiga and Atari ST, has blossomed into an extremely robust platform that covers almost every console and computer, and we're not even close to scratching the surface yet! We're getting Saturn and PS1 soon. Let that sink in! I've only been a member of the community for about a year, and I remember when PS1 was viewed as being a tough fit, and Saturn was a pipe dream.
Once all the mainstream stuff gets preserved, all the obscure stuff will follow. Even though some consoles may not be interesting to developers, many developers love a challenge and to contribute to the open source community, and/or make a side hustle on Patreon if that's their thing. Plus you never know when a new developer will hit the scene out of nowhere. Robert Piep randomly delivered a fully-working GBA core out of nowhere as a Christmas present.
I've heard people say making an FPGA core is much more difficult than software emulation. I kinda disagree. Forgive me for being an armchair developer as I can't write a line of code, but it's been years, and decades even and we still haven't gotten very good Saturn emulation with a team of developers for various emulators. Yet, srg320, if his efforts prove to be successful, will have preserved a Saturn completely in FPGA in 1-2 years of development time as a solo project. The same can be said about the other cores like the SNES cores and the 7800 core most recently, which is the best 7800 emulator on the planet atm (only one that plays 2600).
What I'm saying is that the dev cycle for FPGA cores seems to be a lot faster at the very least to standard software emulators. FPGA is certainly the future of retrogaming and I think that MiSTer's goal to play everything from the 20th century on one device is so compelling that many developers will be happy to develop more obscure consoles. That's my hope at least
I want the Jaguar core to be finished so the arcade hardware based on Jaguar(coJag) can be done. Would love to see Area 51 / Mega Force playable on the MiSTer. Even though the PSX core should be able to play the game. On that note arcade hardware based on console hardware would be cool. I would love for the MegaPlay to be ported as it has a arcade port of Gunstar Heros, Sonic 2 and Streets of Rage 2 were coins = credits. Not to mention all the Playstation based arcade games like Dance Dance Revolution, Tekken, Dead or Alive, Tetris the Grandmaster,
