Lets actually try Hybrid Emulation

[amstan]

You can run any 32bit pi linux distro you want inside a chroot, and leave original MiSTer distro as it is.

I did that at first, but I was sketched out by the chroot folder needing to be inside linux.img (after expansion), and then it might also disappear at any update in the future.

I did the reverse instead, just made mister packages for said other distro: https://github.com/amstan/MiSTerArch. I was installing dosbox from the package manager in it for Caldor the other day

[kolla]

Heh, my gentoo disk images are on the fat file system and loopback mounted into the MiSTer Linux filesystem.

[aberu]

You can run any 32bit pi linux distro you want inside a chroot, and leave original MiSTer distro as it is.

I did that at first, but I was sketched out by the chroot folder needing to be inside linux.img (after expansion), and then it might also disappear at any update in the future.

I did the reverse instead, just made mister packages for said other distro: https://github.com/amstan/MiSTerArch. I was installing dosbox from the package manager in it for Caldor the other day

Have you measured any performance impact to the HPS yet as a result of changing the linux side of things to something like Arch?

[amstan]

> Have you measured any performance impact to the HPS yet as a result of changing the linux side of things to something like Arch?

I mean it's 0% cpu when no mister stuff is loaded. It uses the mister kernel and the mister userspace. What makes you think this would be worse?

[ARCADEAGES]

Just curious; would y'all consider MiSTer + MT32Pi to be hybrid emulation?

[rhester72]

Just curious; would y'all consider MiSTer + MT32Pi to be hybrid emulation?

100%.

[Caldor]

Just curious; would y'all consider MiSTer + MT32Pi to be hybrid emulation?

A type of hybrid emulation, but the MT32 is its own device, so its not hybrid in the same way as with the CPU here. Which makes it easier with MT32. It could also have been done by a separate FPGA I would argue. But the CPU could probably also be done by a separate FPGA. Depends on the bandwidth and latency of the ports I guess.

[FPGA64]

Just curious; would y'all consider MiSTer + MT32Pi to be hybrid emulation?

0 % its a standalone device that communicates with the Mister.

[ARCADEAGES]

Just curious; would y'all consider MiSTer + MT32Pi to be hybrid emulation?

0 % its a standalone device that communicates with the Mister.

So the connect has to be an internal bus rather than external? I don’t see why that makes a difference in the case of MT32pi

[FPGA64]

The Mt32 takes an input from the Mister and responds over the bus. Its a standalone device which can operate entirely apart from the mister. Its not hybrid in any way

[Caldor]

Just curious; would y'all consider MiSTer + MT32Pi to be hybrid emulation?

0 % its a standalone device that communicates with the Mister.

So the connect has to be an internal bus rather than external? I don’t see why that makes a difference in the case of MT32pi

The Midi is a standalone system, always has been. It was not something you integrated directly into a PC or Amiga, it was hardware you connected to it. So I do think its a bit sketchy to argue that it is hybrid emulation.

That is like saying its hybrid emulation when you use a Gotek floppy drive emulator with the Amiga. But the Amiga itself is not emulated in any way. It is just communicating with a floppy drive, that runs on software emulation. The floppy controller and such is still part of the Amiga. PiStorm though, replaces the CPU of the Amiga, a critical part of the system. That makes sense to call hybrid emulation, because its one system where a part of it is emulated and the other part is not.

[Bas]

No true Scotsman..

[foft]

I did that at first, but I was sketched out by the chroot folder needing to be inside linux.img (after expansion), and then it might also disappear at any update in the future.

I did the reverse instead, just made mister packages for said other distro: https://github.com/amstan/MiSTerArch. I was installing dosbox from the package manager in it for Caldor the other day

Cool! Looks great, will give this a try. Would be great to have this or similar for the ‘official’ version.

[aberu]

> Have you measured any performance impact to the HPS yet as a result of changing the linux side of things to something like Arch?

I mean it's 0% cpu when no mister stuff is loaded. It uses the mister kernel and the mister userspace. What makes you think this would be worse?

The linux side handles little maintenance duties while the core is running. HPS-intensive cores (like CD-based cores) make extensive use of the MiSTer binary and file IO. That's why I was curious. I wasn't saying it would be worse, I was wondering if you have measured any of this.

[georgemog]

Firstly, I would like to thank foft for all his work that he has done on hybrid emulation for the Amiga implementation on MiSTer.

I have played with the uae4arm implementation that foft put together, but always had problems getting it to work. Yesterday I had some spare time to investigate what the problems were. This post is a summary of the things that I have found whilst getting this to work. The impressive thing for me is that I managed to reproduce the same result that foft did in his testing.

To install the bundle do the following:-
1. Login to the MiSTer and cd /media/fat
2. Run the command
wget http://www.64kib.com/mister_hybrid_file ... dir.tar.gz
3. When the file has downloaded extract the files from the tar ball.
tar zxvf uae4arm_dir.tar.gz
4. This should create a directory called uae4arm_dir, cd into that directory.
5. Make sure that the console screen is visible on your monitor (press F9 to get it from the MiSTer main screen).
6. Run the command and you should get the uae4arm config screen
./uae4arm.sh

The following output on an ssh connection where the script has been launched is normal.

./uae4arm.sh
UAE4ARM 4.5.0, by TomB
ALSA lib pcm.c:8526:(snd_pcm_recover) underrun occurred
ALSA lib pcm.c:8526:(snd_pcm_recover) underrun occurred
ALSA lib pcm.c:8526:(snd_pcm_recover) underrun occurred
ALSA lib pcm.c:8526:(snd_pcm_recover) underrun occurred
ALSA lib pcm.c:8526:(snd_pcm_recover) underrun occurred
ALSA lib pcm.c:8526:(snd_pcm_recover) underrun occurred
ALSA lib pcm.c:8526:(snd_pcm_recover) underrun occurred
ALSA lib pcm.c:8526:(snd_pcm_recover) underrun occurred
ALSA lib pcm.c:8526:(snd_pcm_recover) underrun occurred
ALSA lib pcm.c:8526:(snd_pcm_recover) underrun occurred
…

Be warned the application is experimental to confirm that that ARMv7 core on the MiSTer has enough processing power to run a faster hybrid emulation. As such the implementation is very fragile. Pressing the wrong buttons on the configuration GUI will cause the software to abort. These buttons are usually file selector dialog boxes. Once the application has aborted, you will need to reboot your MiSTer to clear the console screen so that you can start again. This can be very frustrating, but with perseverance progress can be made.

uae4arm startup.jpg (41.3 KiB) Viewed 10981 times

The config files for the application are in the conf directory. There are three files that are included in the tar ball. The following URL is useful to understand some of the parameters.

https://github.com/keirf/e-uae/blob/mas ... ration.txt

The config file adfdir.conf file appears to be autogenerated by the application. There are some paths that can be updated however that make life easier. The following is a copy of my adfdir.conf file.

path=/media/fat/games/Amiga
config_path=/media/fat/games/Amiga/conf/
rom_path=/media/fat/games/Amiga/
ROMs=7
ROMName=KS ROM v1.2 (A500,A1000,A2000) rev 33.180 (256k) [315093-01]
ROMPath=/media/fat/games/Amiga/Kickstart v1.2 rev 33.180 (1986)(Commodore)(A500-A1000-A2000).rom
ROMType=256
ROMName=KS ROM v1.3 (A500,A1000,A2000) rev 34.5 (256k) [315093-02]
ROMPath=/media/fat/games/Amiga/Kickstart v1.3 rev 34.5 (1987)(Commodore)(A500-A1000-A2000-CDTV).rom
ROMType=256
ROMName=KS ROM v2.04 (A500+) rev 37.175 (512k) [390979-01]
ROMPath=/media/fat/games/Amiga/Kickstart v2.04 rev 37.175 (1991)(Commodore)(A500+).rom
ROMType=256
ROMName=KS ROM v2.05 (A600HD) rev 37.300 (512k) [391304-01]
ROMPath=/media/fat/games/Amiga/Kickstart v2.05 rev 37.300 (1991)(Commodore)(A600HD).rom
ROMType=256
ROMName=KS ROM v3.1 (A1200) rev 40.68 (512k) [391773-01/391774-01]
ROMPath=/media/fat/games/Amiga/Kickstart v3.1 rev 40.68 (1993)(Commodore)(A1200).rom
ROMType=256
ROMName=Freezer: HRTMon v2.37 (built-in)
ROMPath=:HRTMon
ROMType=524291
ROMName= AROS KS ROM (built-in) (1024k)
ROMPath=:AROS
ROMType=256
MRUDiskList=7
Diskfile=/media/fat/games/Amiga/adf/trans2.adf
Diskfile=/media/fat/games/Amiga/adf/amiga-os-310-workbench.adf
Diskfile=/media/fat/games/Amiga/adf/amiga-os-310-fonts.adf
Diskfile=/media/fat/games/Amiga/adf/amiga-os-310-extras.adf
Diskfile=/media/fat/games/Amiga/adf/amiga-os-310-install.adf
Diskfile=/media/fat/games/Amiga/adf/amiga-os-310-storage.adf
Diskfile=/media/fat/games/Amiga/adf/amiga-os-310-locale.adf
MRUCDList=0
Quickstart=1

The entries that can be edited are:-
rom_path – Change this to point to where the Kickstart ROM files are located on your system. The application will auto populate the entries in the file when it runs.
Diskfile – These entries are useful because whilst they don’t auto populate except if you specify a file in the floppy0, floppy1, floppy2, floppy3 entry of a .uae file, they do allow you to specify floppy disk images that can be selected from the floppy disk drop down menu in the configuration GUI. It does make life easier.
MRUDiskList – If you add Diskfile entries then update the count to match the number of entries.

uae4arm floppy dropdown.jpg (55.1 KiB) Viewed 10981 times

What I found worked for me was to start the application and use the GUI to configure some basic settings. These configurations were:-
• CPU and FPU
• Chipset
• ROM – use the drop down menu to select the ROM type
• RAM
• Floppy Drives – use the drop down menu to select the desired .adf files

When done use the Configurations page to save a custom config. Fill in a Name: and a Description: and press the [Save] button.

The name that you give will form the filename of .uae config file.

uae4arm config.jpg (29.83 KiB) Viewed 10981 times

The .uae config files are complicated and have a lot of entries that I don’t understand. Common parameters that can be changed are:-
floppy0 – This specifies the file that is to be used in floppy drive 0.
floppy0=/media/fat/games/Amiga/adf/amiga-os-310-workbench.adf
floppy1 – This specifies the file that is to be used in floppy drive 1.
floppy2 – This specifies the file that is to be used in floppy drive 2.
floppy3 – This specifies the file that is to be used in floppy drive 3.

filesystem2 – This specifies the directory that can be used as a hard drive. Mounts the host directory specified by the path <path> as a virtual filesystem under AmigaOS with the volume name <volume> and a faked device name of <device>. The volume will have the boot priory <bootpri>. The token <access> specifies whether the volume is writable. If this is set to 'rw' then the device is writable; if it's 'ro' then the volume is read-only.
e.g. filesystem2=rw,DH0:System:/media/fat/games/Amiga/hdf_dir,0

The application will create the following entry in the .uae config file.
uaehf0=dir,rw,DH0:System:/media/fat/games/Amiga/hdf_dir,0

Note: The directory needs to sit on a Linux ext4 filesystem to work properly. I got this to work by doing the following to a USB drive that I had formatted a partition as ext4. I then ran the commands:-

mkdir -p /media/usb1/games/Amiga/hdf_dir
chmod a+rwx /media/usb1/games/Amiga/hdf_dir
I then updated the .uae file to the following:-
filesystem2=rw,DH0:System:/media/usb1/games/Amiga/hdf_dir,0
uaehf0=dir,rw,DH0:System:/media/usb1/games/Amiga/hdf_dir,0

This worked and I was able to install Workbench on the virtual hard disk.

Most importantly with all of this I have been consistently able to recreate the test result that foft produced.

Hybrid Amiga.jpg (237.11 KiB) Viewed 10981 times

I’m sure to some people a lot of the things in this post will be common knowledge, but if they aren’t then I have shared them.

[gibs]

Firstly, I would like to thank foft for all his work that he has done on hybrid emulation for the Amiga implementation on MiSTer.

Hi georgemog,
At this stage, it's only running on the ARM side, right ?
+

[Caldor]

Firstly, I would like to thank foft for all his work that he has done on hybrid emulation for the Amiga implementation on MiSTer.

Hi georgemog,
At this stage, it's only running on the ARM side, right ?
+

Yes, the reason to do this is to just test what performance it seems we might gain using this emulator for the CPU. If it runs the emulator this well without hybrid emulation, it will probably run at least this well with hybrid emulation. Although the hybrid emulation does introduce some bottlenecks, so there might be issues. But this way we can find out which emulator seems most viable for the task.

[NovaCoder]

Well at 99 MIPS it looks like it's worth it to me

[kolla]

Right, but if the goal is RTG, RTA etc. the question is perhaps whether using the FPGA is worth the hassle.

[renewable_intel]

Personally I do think it’s worth the hassle, hybrid is pushing the boundaries of what’s theoretically possible with the current DE10.

For example, I’m currently using Octamed SS with Paula’s 14bit mode which is pretty CPU intensive, sure something UAE can handle but I also use midi, FPGA has an advantage over emulation when it comes to time critical data processing of midi information, try running any midi application under emulation and you’ll quickly realise how terrible emulation really is for low level data and latency, both midi and audio.

So personally, I think exploring Hybrid is the way forward, besides where’s your sense of adventure?

[Coolbho3k]

What are the OC capability of the arm chip on the DE-10? Anyone tried to give it an OC? Is that even possible?
(I actually asked in the wrong topic, but that's relevant here as well I guess)

It appears possible, I’m working on it, and so far I’m optimistic. I’ve tested up to 1.2 GHz - a 50% increase - as well as a 400 MHz underclock - half the stock speed - and I’ve confirmed both options with a simple benchmark, without heavy stability testing. If it plays out well, I’ll likely have a kernel cpufreq driver ready in the next couple of weeks, and then it’ll be as simple as running a script.

If anyone is interested in lower power usage while idle, I got automatic frequency scaling working too. This would give us better power management, but as the Mister process currently keeps a single core at 100%, Linux will keep the CPU pegged at the maximum allowed speed all the time.

From my experience doing similar things to mobile devices, these ARM cores usually have a lot of headroom. And we have the luxury of active cooling too. I’m guessing at least 1 GHz should be reachable for all boards, if not 925 MHz, the official speed on the -C6 speed bin of the Cyclone V socfpga.

It likely isn’t possible to control core voltage on the Cyclone V socfpga, so even more extreme overclocks may be limited. If 1.2 GHz is stable on most boards though, it could be a great improvement.

Follow the work: https://github.com/coolbho3k/socfpga_oc

[Neocaron]

What are the OC capability of the arm chip on the DE-10? Anyone tried to give it an OC? Is that even possible?
(I actually asked in the wrong topic, but that's relevant here as well I guess)

It appears possible, I’m working on it, and so far I’m optimistic. I’ve tested up to 1.2 GHz - a 50% increase - as well as a 400 MHz underclock - half the stock speed - and I’ve confirmed both options with a simple benchmark, without heavy stability testing. If it plays out well, I’ll likely have a kernel cpufreq driver ready in the next couple of weeks, and then it’ll be as simple as running a script.

If anyone is interested in lower power usage while idle, I got automatic frequency scaling working too. This would give us better power management, but as the Mister process currently keeps a single core at 100%, Linux will keep the CPU pegged at the maximum allowed speed all the time.

From my experience doing similar things to mobile devices, these ARM cores usually have a lot of headroom. And we have the luxury of active cooling too. I’m guessing at least 1 GHz should be reachable for all boards, if not 925 MHz, the official speed on the -C6 speed bin of the Cyclone V socfpga.

It likely isn’t possible to control core voltage on the Cyclone V socfpga, so even more extreme overclocks may be limited. If 1.2 GHz is stable on most boards though, it could be a great improvement.

Follow the work: https://github.com/coolbho3k/socfpga_oc

Amazing! I'm definitely gonna follow this. It could have a massive impact on hybrid emulation, but not just! Very exciting!
Especially when you consider that most have solid cooling on their Mister

[Caldor]

Sure would make a lot of sense to have some overclocking options for the MiSTer... even as it is now, the MiSTer does have the ability to emulate midi, but just lacks some CPU power, and my impression is that its pretty close to being able to do it without issue. So that might be enough reason to overclock the MiSTer.

[Coolbho3k]

I released an initial version of my overclock. It's as easy as copying the new kernel file to your SD card and running a script. Not sure how to set up the hybrid emulation stuff, so if someone wants to try it and see the performance: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4320

[georgemog]

Hi Coolbho3k, thank you for your work on this. I have just tried it to see what the performance gains would like with UAE4ARM that Foft compiled. Wow!

Using CPU MAX = 1200MHz sys info shows the following:-

1200MHz sysinfo

Sysinfo 1200MHz.jpg (170.89 KiB) Viewed 9664 times

Using CPU MAX = 1200MHz sys info shows the following:-

1000MHz sysinfo

Sysinfo 1000MHz.jpg (153.33 KiB) Viewed 9664 times

Using CPU MAX = 800MHz sys info shows the following:-

800Mhz sysinfo

Sysinfo 800MHz.jpg (165.14 KiB) Viewed 9664 times

I now have to figure out how to compile emu68 and get it to work with Foft's implementation. This is going to take a while.

https://github.com/michalsc/Emu68

[Neocaron]

The Dosbox performance is also through the roof now with 50% more performance for a 50% OC! This is a game changer for the future and hybrid emulation! I didn't expect the 1.2ghz OC to be as stable as it. It's crazy.

Wait a second

Hi Coolbho3k, thank you for your work on this. I have just tried it to see what the performance gains would like with UAE4ARM that Foft compiled. Wow!

Using CPU MAX = 1200MHz sys info shows the following:-
Sysinfo 1200MHz.jpg

Using CPU MAX = 1200MHz sys info shows the following:-
Sysinfo 1000MHz.jpg

Using CPU MAX = 800MHz sys info shows the following:-
Sysinfo 800MHz.jpg

I now have to figure out how to compile emu68 and get it to work with Foft's implementation. This is going to take a while.

https://github.com/michalsc/Emu68

Why do you get a 100% gain compare to the regular result How come?

[Coolbho3k]

The Dosbox performance is also through the roof now with 50% more performance for a 50% OC! This is a game changer for the future and hybrid emulation! I didn't expect the 1.2ghz OC to be as stable as it. It's crazy.

Wait a second

Hi Coolbho3k, thank you for your work on this. I have just tried it to see what the performance gains would like with UAE4ARM that Foft compiled. Wow!

Using CPU MAX = 1200MHz sys info shows the following:-
Sysinfo 1200MHz.jpg

Using CPU MAX = 1200MHz sys info shows the following:-
Sysinfo 1000MHz.jpg

Using CPU MAX = 800MHz sys info shows the following:-
Sysinfo 800MHz.jpg

I now have to figure out how to compile emu68 and get it to work with Foft's implementation. This is going to take a while.

https://github.com/michalsc/Emu68

Do you get a 100% gain compare to the regular result How come?

Wow! I wonder what's making it go so fast.

[kathleen]

Interesting to see that the new Rev1.8 Miniming card from 2022 proposes also a kind of hybrid with the Pistorm (running official core and Emu68)
I really like their statement : "PiStorm compatibility – Using optimized Emu68 over 800MIPS of CPU performance! About 3-4X speed of Vampire. "
https://www.minimig.ca/index.php/produc ... 1-8-green/

[Fularu]

Interesting to see that the new Rev1.8 Miniming card from 2022 proposes also a kind of hybrid with the Pistorm (running official core and Emu68)
I really like their statement : "PiStorm compatibility – Using optimized Emu68 over 800MIPS of CPU performance! About 3-4X speed of Vampire. "
https://www.minimig.ca/index.php/produc ... 1-8-green/

It's kind of unfortunate that this version of Minimig doesn'T support AGA.

Aga with PiStorm would be quite an amazing thing. Much more so imho than with Buffee. I know there's an upcoming TF1200 with a 68000 dip socket so that you can plug a buffee or PiStorm but that would be one more card for me (along with my TF1260 and 1230 MK IV)

[Caldor]

Interesting to see that the new Rev1.8 Miniming card from 2022 proposes also a kind of hybrid with the Pistorm (running official core and Emu68)
I really like their statement : "PiStorm compatibility – Using optimized Emu68 over 800MIPS of CPU performance! About 3-4X speed of Vampire. "
https://www.minimig.ca/index.php/produc ... 1-8-green/

It's kind of unfortunate that this version of Minimig doesn'T support AGA.

Aga with PiStorm would be quite an amazing thing. Much more so imho than with Buffee. I know there's an upcoming TF1200 with a 68000 dip socket so that you can plug a buffee or PiStorm but that would be one more card for me (along with my TF1260 and 1230 MK IV)

Strange it does not support AGA? I thought AGA support for Minimig came from the Minimig? Or maybe it was developed on the MiST first? I just know it was ported to the MiSTer rather than developed on the MiSTer. Just like the RTG feature was not a feature the MiSTer got first.