S-Video and Composite Over Component Output! (Custom Cores)

[dmckean]

ypbpr=1 needs to be set ....

I think that's out-of-date, it needs to be zero now.

I just used the standard ini file and it worked out-of-the box for me.

Are you using the analog board or direct video?

[luckdot]

Thanks for all the info in this thread. 5.5 IO board here. I took a loose/cut VGA cable I had handy, wired per the docs - "Red (CHROMA), Green (LUMA)" to the s-video connector, changed the settings listed (including SOG switch) and voila! Works great. Can't wait to see this merged into mainline. Hope this saves some old consumer CRTs.

[beamrider]

Are you using the analog board or direct video?

Analog IO Board

[akeley]

Ill update the wiki this weekend, I meant to do it last week but got tied up with work, then lost my draft changes =/

Big thanks for making the wiki update. Anybody can view it via this link for now https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_Mi ... site-cores

I still have a few changes to make in other parts of this doc, but in a few days I will make this guide available on the main MiSTer Wiki sidebar, so it will be properly visible/accessible.

Questions regarding your write up:
-you only mention analog/digital IO boards, are these cores not working via Direct Video atm? If not, do you think it will be possible in the future?
-there is a mention of custom boards/cables, any chance to link to their diagrams, or example sellers in case there are ready made ones available?

[MikeS1]

Ill update the wiki this weekend, I meant to do it last week but got tied up with work, then lost my draft changes =/

Big thanks for making the wiki update. Anybody can view it via this link for now https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_Mi ... site-cores

I still have a few changes to make in other parts of this doc, but in a few days I will make this guide available on the main MiSTer Wiki sidebar, so it will be properly visible/accessible.

Questions regarding your write up:
-you only mention analog/digital IO boards, are these cores not working via Direct Video atm? If not, do you think it will be possible in the future?
-there is a mention of custom boards/cables, any chance to link to their diagrams, or example sellers in case there are ready made ones available?

Digital IO board assumes Direct Video and they all work with it, I test it on both at the same time . Ill post the gerber files for my breakout boards into the mister git once I've fully tested it. Im hoping to have that soon but it depends on testing any any other fabricating.

[akeley]

Ill post the gerber files for my breakout boards into the mister git once I've fully tested it. Im hoping to have that soon but it depends on testing any any other fabricating.

Cool, how about the cables people are using at the moment? Do they have to be custom made, or can it be something off the shelf?

Also, can these methods be used for European CRT TVs? Most of the newer ones should be able to handle NTSC (at least via RGB SCART and S Video).

[mapf]

With RGB SCART the color information is directly available in the 3 color inputs. Newer European sets can mostly manage both 50Hz and 60Hz signals, and with SCART RGB you will get a color picture as well.

For S-Video and Composite, the color information needs to be encoded with the other information. NTSC and PAL use different ways of encoding. Many European sets will only decode PAL color information, even if they support 60 Hz signals.

Japanese brands like Toshiba and Sony seem to support NTSC more consistently (I guess they used a single design for the world markets?) and note the feature clearly in their manuals. European brands can vary more in my experience. But this is only anecdotal.

[beamrider]

Cool, how about the cables people are using at the moment? Do they have to be custom made, or can it be something off the shelf?

I think most people are going with a standard VGA to Component/RGB cable with the three phono output plugs (this is sufficient for e.g. a Commodore 1702 monitor using red/green) and then a y-adapter to either an s-video plug or just combining to another phono for composite.

There is a breakout board in the works that offers improvements such as Luma-trap and SOG for direct video.

[beamrider]

With RGB SCART the color information is directly available in the 3 color inputs. Newer European sets can mostly manage both 50Hz and 60Hz signals, and with SCART RGB you will get a color picture as well.

Just to state the obvious, but with RGB, you wouldn't need the cores that are the subject of this thread.

[akeley]

I think most people are going with a standard VGA to Component/RGB cable with the three phono output plugs (this is sufficient for e.g. a Commodore 1702 monitor using red/green) and then a y-adapter to either an s-video plug or just combining to another phono for composite.

There is a breakout board in the works that offers improvements such as Luma-trap and SOG for direct video.

Yeah, that's what MikeS1 wrote in the wiki, I'm just trying to make sure if this could also be applicable for the Euro zone. We mostly have SCART here, which often serves as S-Video (composite is via RCA), so most people use MiSTer with VGA-SCART cables.

I have some Japanese consoles/micros which work via Composite/S Video on my Trinitrons. Have to check later with a Philips too.

[beamrider]

I am in the UK and using a PAL Commodore 1702, some of the cores work under PAL others remain in monochrome. You have to set some of the cores also to the EU region in the OSD in addition to selecting s-video to get colour out.

Thinking about it, you might need a custom adapter for SCART/s-video to ensure that luma/chroma from Red/Green is wired to the correct pins.

Perhaps VGA-->Component-->Red/Green plugs-->S-video via Y adapter-->SCART adapter.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000L0W3ZE/

[Papadon]

Awesome initiative and amazing work @MikeS1 !

I've got everything working for the most part, but noticing the colors are definitely off and there appears to be more flickering/shimmering when compared to using Antonio's adapter. Not having dot crawl is nice, but these drawbacks outweigh the dot crawl for me unfortunately.

Using a standard VGA to component with R/G into a 2-1 female to male RCA - all settings appear to be working - Composite is ON, SVIDEO turned on, etc.

If I turn OFF S-video in the core settings, the flickering/shimmering is gone, but so are all of the colours.

Using a small 13" Sony Trinitron TV from 1997. Not sure if it needs whatever resistor modded into the cable to fix the issue? Any tips would be appreciated. Also, how does one go about modding the cable with this? Any videos on it?

Thanks!

[dmckean]

Awesome initiative and amazing work @MikeS1 !

I've got everything working for the most part, but noticing the colors are definitely off and there appears to be more flickering/shimmering when compared to using Antonio's adapter. Not having dot crawl is nice, but these drawbacks outweigh the dot crawl for me unfortunately.

Using a standard VGA to component with R/G into a 2-1 female to male RCA - all settings appear to be working - Composite is ON, SVIDEO turned on, etc.

If I turn OFF S-video in the core settings, the flickering/shimmering is gone, but so are all of the colours.

Using a small 13" Sony Trinitron TV from 1997. Not sure if it needs whatever resistor modded into the cable to fix the issue? Any tips would be appreciated. Also, how does one go about modding the cable with this? Any videos on it?

Thanks!

This is why you need the capacitor across the red and green leads and cannot just combine them with a y-cable. For composite I would wait for MikeS's adapter boards that include an actual luma trap.

[MikeS1]

Awesome initiative and amazing work @MikeS1 !

I've got everything working for the most part, but noticing the colors are definitely off and there appears to be more flickering/shimmering when compared to using Antonio's adapter. Not having dot crawl is nice, but these drawbacks outweigh the dot crawl for me unfortunately.

Using a standard VGA to component with R/G into a 2-1 female to male RCA - all settings appear to be working - Composite is ON, SVIDEO turned on, etc.

If I turn OFF S-video in the core settings, the flickering/shimmering is gone, but so are all of the colours.

Using a small 13" Sony Trinitron TV from 1997. Not sure if it needs whatever resistor modded into the cable to fix the issue? Any tips would be appreciated. Also, how does one go about modding the cable with this? Any videos on it?

Thanks!

Thats pretty core dependent, and many of the original consoles had some type of "simmering" on the real console, but for any rainbow artifacts, thats going to take a bit of work to design a filter to remove that noise from the luma signal. I'm working on that right now but with no ETA.

Just a note I've moved the repository here: https://github.com/MikeS11/MiSTerFPGA_Y ... C%20Builds, I had it in the template one before and that makes it impossible for me to perform any pull request to main. Please use that link moving forward!

[beamrider]

@Mikes1, thanks for the updates.

Are the cores still a WIP or are they reasonably complete? Reason for asking is I still can only get the C64/SMS/Genesis/NES/SNES cores working in PAL with colour, others all remain in monochrome.

Just wondered if this is something that we can expect to be fixed eventually or perhaps it is something outside your control?

Also I couldn't get any of the arcade cores to work at all. Just remained a blank screen.

[DevilHunterWolf]

@Mikes1, thanks for the updates.

Are the cores still a WIP or are they reasonably complete? Reason for asking is I still can only get the C64/SMS/Genesis/NES/SNES cores working in PAL with colour, others all remain in monochrome.

Just wondered if this is something that we can expect to be fixed eventually or perhaps it is something outside your control?

Also I couldn't get any of the arcade cores to work at all. Just remained a blank screen.

MikeS1's upcoming board will probably help with the color coming in. A few people have had issues with the luma signal not coming in strong enough. Cable length seems to make a big difference without a board to assist in the process. Even simplifying it down to just the cable and adapter I'm using, there's been occasional times on Genesis and Arcade cores where I've had to turn off and on the S-Video setting to "jump start" the color. It'll be fine after that but it's been the downside of not having a board to assist. My Commodore 1702 monitor over Commodore Video connection has handled it better than my Composite only TVs but I've still had to "jump start" the color on some arcade cores for it. I'm in the NTSC region so I don't know how much that's making a difference compared to your experience.

As for getting the arcade cores working, someone else may have to speak to a potential better way but I just deleted and replaced the .rbf files with the ones MikeS1 modified. No issues with any of the individual games MRAs I tried. I went the direct way since I otherwise don't know how the .mra files interact with the .rbf files and if there's a way to select individual versions.

[beamrider]

MikeS1's upcoming board will probably help with the color coming in. A few people have had issues with the luma signal not coming in strong enough. Cable length seems to make a big difference without a board to assist in the process.

I was under the impression the up-coming board was just for composite? I'm just using s-video currently.

As for getting the arcade cores working, someone else may have to speak to a potential better way but I just deleted and replaced the .rbf files with the ones MikeS1 modified. No issues with any of the individual games MRAs I tried. I went the direct way since I otherwise don't know how the .mra files interact with the .rbf files and if there's a way to select individual versions.

Oh okay sorry, I just put them as a sub-folder of my s-video folder. I'll copy across the .mra files as well..

[DevilHunterWolf]

I thought it was for both Composite and S-Video but I can't find the picture of the board design and things are a bit shuffled around as the cores have had a couple relocations. Either way, I'd still recommend trying the "jump start" of turning the S-Video mode off and on. Even using essentially the same fidelity of S-Video through my 1702's Commodore Video ports, some of the more demanding arcade cores occasionally needed that quick change to get the color in.

[MikeS1]

I thought it was for both Composite and S-Video but I can't find the picture of the board design and things are a bit shuffled around as the cores have had a couple relocations. Either way, I'd still recommend trying the "jump start" of turning the S-Video mode off and on. Even using essentially the same fidelity of S-Video through my 1702's Commodore Video ports, some of the more demanding arcade cores occasionally needed that quick change to get the color in.

Yeah the new board is really just to add a luma trap for composite and/or to make it easy to just connect an S-Video cable.

Here are some tests of a luma trap i've been looking at and it really cleans up a lot of problems even in with the SNES core were you get shimmering off the trees in super mario world but you dont with a luma trap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53fHR6i8vAQ

For anyone who wants to cheaply add it, just use a 10uH inductor and 200pF capacitor in parallel into your luma signal before you mix them.

                        -----200pF-------
Luma -------------                      ------------------------------- To TV
                        ------10uH--------

It's not a perfect Luma trap but it gets rid of 90% of the issue, and has a model 1 genesis type of look

[shertz]

ZEZ did a nice video about this subject ....

https://youtu.be/MTwUiqKNV2E

[matijaerceg]

I've been playing with these cores and with a homemade luma trap, and it's been FANTASTIC! It feels so right to have 8 and 16 bit consoles have the composite artifacting. Especially Genesis, which is too jarring to me via RGB; I find the sharp dithering distracting. The composite blend setting helped, but it doesn't do what real composite does. I can't get enough of it!

[antoniovillena]

I have released a prototype with luma trap (same luma trap than I've used with AD723). If some developper/youtuber or MikeS1 wants to try I can send one for free. The final price will be 15 EUR without case or 20 EUR with case. I use the same case than VGA->Composite adapter.

[matijaerceg]

I have released a prototype with luma trap (same luma trap than I've used with AD723). If some developper/youtuber or MikeS1 wants to try I can send one for free. The final price will be 15 EUR without case or 20 EUR with case. I use the same case than VGA->Composite adapter.

Is the luma trap built in to the ad723 or did you add a capacitor/inductor? If the latter, what capacitor/inductor combo?

[antoniovillena]

I have released a prototype with luma trap (same luma trap than I've used with AD723). If some developper/youtuber or MikeS1 wants to try I can send one for free. The final price will be 15 EUR without case or 20 EUR with case. I use the same case than VGA->Composite adapter.

Is the luma trap built in to the ad723 or did you add a capacitor/inductor? If the latter, what capacitor/inductor combo?

I use the circuit in page 18 with original values: 9pF, 18pF, 47K and 68uH. NTSC/PAL line is transmited through VSYNC line (VGA pin 14).

https://www.analog.com/media/en/technic ... /ad723.pdf

[AmintaMister]

I have released a prototype with luma trap (same luma trap than I've used with AD723). If some developper/youtuber or MikeS1 wants to try I can send one for free. The final price will be 15 EUR without case or 20 EUR with case. I use the same case than VGA->Composite adapter.

Just bought your current adapter, I book this one also!

[matijaerceg]

I use the circuit in page 18 with original values: 9pF, 18pF, 47K and 68uH. NTSC/PAL line is transmited through VSYNC line (VGA pin 14).

Cool, so that's a dual-standard NTSC/PAL luma trap?

[antoniovillena]

I use the circuit in page 18 with original values: 9pF, 18pF, 47K and 68uH. NTSC/PAL line is transmited through VSYNC line (VGA pin 14).

Cool, so that's a dual-standard NTSC/PAL luma trap?

Yes. But requires core support to send 0 or 1 on that line to activate NTSC or PAL.

Now it's for sale on my store.

https://www.antoniovillena.es/store/pro ... o-adapter/

[matijaerceg]

Yes. But requires core support to send 0 or 1 on that line to activate NTSC or PAL.
https://www.antoniovillena.es/store/pro ... o-adapter/

Do the MikeS cores already do this?

[dshadoff]

I have released a prototype with luma trap (same luma trap than I've used with AD723). If some developper/youtuber or MikeS1 wants to try I can send one for free. The final price will be 15 EUR without case or 20 EUR with case. I use the same case than VGA->Composite adapter.

Is the luma trap built in to the ad723 or did you add a capacitor/inductor? If the latter, what capacitor/inductor combo?

I use the circuit in page 18 with original values: 9pF, 18pF, 47K and 68uH. NTSC/PAL line is transmited through VSYNC line (VGA pin 14).

https://www.analog.com/media/en/technic ... /ad723.pdf

Does this adapter/circuit have the same problems/incompatibility with the Commodore 1701/1702 montiors that your other composite adapter has ?

[antoniovillena]

Yes. But requires core support to send 0 or 1 on that line to activate NTSC or PAL.
https://www.antoniovillena.es/store/pro ... o-adapter/

Do the MikeS cores already do this?

No, as I know. But he can confirm.