SNAC vs BlisSTer vs Deamonbite

[pedroTFP]

Hi,
I know all are low latency option to use original controllers with MiSTer, but I'm not sure what is best for each user scenario.
Can someone clarify pros and cons of each solution?

[FPGA64]

Snac - Lightguns
Deamonbite - everything else
Blisster - not supported officially so avoid

[AngelicLiver]

SNAC

• Wide official core support
• No lag, direct electrical connection to FPGA
• Allows original CRT dependant lightguns to function
• Cheap, can DIY
• Doesn't work in OSD menus
• Requires adapter per controller interface
• Limited to 1 input (unless you use unofficial third-party cores/adapters)

DaemonBite

• Supported everywhere
• Very low lag, 1ms~ with 1000Hz USB polling
• Works in OSD menus
• Can run multiple controllers on a single microcontroller/adapter
• Can use non-native controllers on any core (PC Engine on NES for example)
• Can use elsewhere (PC, RasPi etc.)
• Cheap, can DIY
• Run as many controllers as the core/adapter can handle
• Doesn't support lightguns

BlisSTer

• No lag, bypasses USB via LLAPI
  
• Lightguns should work
  
• Can use multiple inputs
  
• Works in OSD menus
• Not officially supported
• Needs specially compiled LLAPI cores (can get them via update_all)
• Expensive adapters, can DIY but it's a bit of a faff
  
• Waning support

Tldr; SNAC for lightguns and DaemonBite for almost everything else.

[DevilHunterWolf]

This is not necessarily an endorsement of the BlisSTer board, but there are some benefits I've enjoyed from it. As an analog IO board user, I appreciate the built in power button. It makes the setup a bit more clean and it's a lot more protected than the usual double DC with the inline switch. I've accidentally hit that when messing around in my arcade build and I don't want to think what it would be like with my BlisSTer build and the frequent cable changes for different screens I use.

The other thing is that the adapters I used for BlisSTer are the same ones I now use for SNAC. They're interchangeable and buying them didn't go to waste. And in theory, the BlisSTer ports allow you to use any controller there's a BlissBox adapter for. I say theory because right now I can't get them to work outside of LLAPI mode. Might be I need to update or something. That's one of those downsides of an unofficial board. But one USB adapter purchase later and I can use them on PC, as well. So basically nothing I've bought for BlisSTer has been for a singular use.

Of course, BlisSTer has far less case options for it since it has different ports, it is again unofficial and subject to a third party to support, and the DaemonBite adapters serve many of the same purposes aside from SNAC support.

[grizzly]

Some important pro/cons/info is left out of this list!
Will add them

SNAC
DaemonBite
BlisSTer
Tldr; SNAC for lightguns and DaemonBite for almost everything else.

SNAC

• Wide official core support
• No lag, direct electrical connection to FPGA (which means it will be the exact same connection as a real console)
• Allows original CRT dependant lightguns to function
• Cheap, can DIY
• ONLY the "systems" controller will work for each core for example you can NOT use a SNES controller with the NES core or ANY other core, SNES controller will work for SNES core ONLY. That is a controller will only work for a core IF that controller would work on the real system
• Doesn't work in OSD menus
• Requires adapter per controller interface
• Limited to 1 input (unless you use unofficial third-party cores/adapters)

DaemonBite

• Supported everywhere
• Very low lag, 1ms~ with 1000Hz USB polling
• Works in OSD menus
• Can run multiple controllers on a single microcontroller/adapter
• Can use non-native controllers on any core (PC Engine on NES for example)
• Can use elsewhere (PC, RasPi etc.)
• Cheap, can DIY
• Run as many controllers as the core/adapter can handle
• Doesn't support lightguns

BlisSTer

• No lag, bypasses USB via LLAPI
  
• Lightguns should work
  
• Can use multiple inputs
  
• Works in OSD menus
• If no LLAPI core is used (for example the official mister cores) then normal USB mode is used and works just as fast/good as Daemonbites
• ALL controller works for ALL cores for example you can use a PSX controller on the NES core
• Not officially supported
• Needs specially compiled LLAPI cores (can get them via update_all)
• Expensive adapters, can DIY but it's a bit of a faff
  
• Waning support

[Wave]

The updated pros/cons list seems really fair.

Most people will be happy with DaemonBite or similar.

BlisSTer seems to get a lot of flack for its history/creators (and will likely never be officially supported as a result) but as an end-user I've been fairly happy with it. Its ports offer ultra low latency with LLAPI cores (which do get updated often enough) and fall back to normal 1000Hz USB for regular cores. I never feel like I don't have a convenient way to play a system I have an OEM controller for, and can use those controllers for any system core. It also looks less messy than a bunch of DaemonBites would, and the integrated power switch is great. (I have not tested light guns.)

While I admire SNAC's purity, I consider its inability to mix and match controller types between systems a big drawback, as well as its inability to operate the OSD. Its frequent limitations on player/controller count aren't great either.

[AngelicLiver]

Thanks for updating the list.

I agree BlisSter isn't a bad option, variety is the spice of life and all that. If you're looking for a decent multi-controller DaemonBite adapter I DIY'd one of these a while back. I still have a bunch of PCBs left I should get around to populating one of these days.

[remax]

It also looks less messy than a bunch of DaemonBites would, and the integrated power switch is great. (I have not tested light guns.)

Yeah, it's very well integrated in this Mister Box : https://ultimatemister.com/product/ulti ... ase-rev-2/

[Wave]

Yeah, it's very well integrated in this Mister Box : https://ultimatemister.com/product/ulti ... ase-rev-2/

Mm. I opted for this acrylic BlisSTer case from misterfpga.co.uk:
https://misterfpga.co.uk/product/blisster-mister-case/

Apparently misteraddons.com used to sell a BlisSTer case too, but stopped. There is still (what I believe is) a 3d printable MiSTer case + BlisSTer add-on enclosure they made on Thingiverse.

[pedroTFP]

Thank you very much for the replies!
I was going with DB+Gcon2, so I'll stick with that.

[Chilli_Vibes]

Cost should also come into this.
For example, all 7 SNAC adapters + SNAC USB Adapter = £64.
Whereas, just 5 single-player DaemonBite adapters = £86 (converted from 99.50 euro). Should anyone want multi-player DaemonBite adapters, then you are looking at 33 Euro to 47 Euro, each.
Another negative for SNAC, is the fact that none of the adapters come cased, they're all bare metal, and do stick out a bit from the Mister case. I have all 7 adapters, and I have to make sure the main adapter, and the SNAC NES/SNES/MD/ etc... sit on a piece of cardboard and away from anything conductive.

[FPGA64]

Cost should also come into this.
For example, all 7 SNAC adapters + SNAC USB Adapter = £64.
Whereas, just 5 single-player DaemonBite adapters = £86 (converted from 99.50 euro). Should anyone want multi-player DaemonBite adapters, then you are looking at 33 Euro to 47 Euro, each.
Another negative for SNAC, is the fact that none of the adapters come cased, they're all bare metal, and do stick out a bit from the Mister case. I have all 7 adapters, and I have to make sure the main adapter, and the SNAC NES/SNES/MD/ etc... sit on a piece of cardboard and away from anything conductive.

Homemade Daemonbites are the cost of an extension cable and an arduino. If you want to go commercial its expensive.

[DevilHunterWolf]

Another negative for SNAC, is the fact that none of the adapters come cased, they're all bare metal, and do stick out a bit from the Mister case. I have all 7 adapters, and I have to make sure the main adapter, and the SNAC NES/SNES/MD/ etc... sit on a piece of cardboard and away from anything conductive.

MiSTerAddons sells his SNAC adapter in a case now. Mine is a first run before he started doing that that so mine is bare but it still came with the short extension that's not going to put a lot of pressure on the User IO port. So it's possible to get a SNAC solution that is protected and safe.

[Chilli_Vibes]

MiSTerAddons sells his SNAC adapter in a case now. Mine is a first run before he started doing that that so mine is bare but it still came with the short extension that's not going to put a lot of pressure on the User IO port. So it's possible to get a SNAC solution that is protected and safe.

Thanks for that info, I didn't know that. Off to have a gander.

[HerrBerzerk]

The DB9 board from Antonia Villena, is that something of the above three or a further different option?

Thanks.

[AngelicLiver]

The DB9 board from Antonia Villena, is that something of the above three or a further different option?

Thanks.

The DB9 connector is used by Antonio Villena's kit but effectively is SNAC (it's electrically identical and you can adapt DB9 to the user port and vice versa). To confuse matters there are adapters produced by Antonio that "split" SNAC so you can use two native controllers simultaneously but you will need specifically compiled unofficial cores.

[LamerDeluxe]

Some important pro/cons/info is left out of this list!
Will add them

SNAC

• Wide official core support
• No lag, direct electrical connection to FPGA (which means it will be the exact same connection as a real console)
• Allows original CRT dependant lightguns to function
• Cheap, can DIY
• Atari adapter supports paddle controllers
• ONLY the "systems" controller will work for each core for example you can NOT use a SNES controller with the NES core or ANY other core, SNES controller will work for SNES core ONLY. That is a controller will only work for a core IF that controller would work on the real system
• Doesn't work in OSD menus
• Requires adapter per controller interface
• Limited to 1 input (unless you use unofficial third-party cores/adapters)

DaemonBite

• Supported everywhere
• Very low lag, 1ms~ with 1000Hz USB polling
• Works in OSD menus
• Can run multiple controllers on a single microcontroller/adapter
• Can use non-native controllers on any core (PC Engine on NES for example)
• Can use elsewhere (PC, RasPi etc.)
• Cheap, can DIY
• Run as many controllers as the core/adapter can handle
• Doesn't support lightguns
• Doesn't support paddle controllers

BlisSTer

• No lag, bypasses USB via LLAPI
  
• Lightguns should work
  
• Can use multiple inputs
  
• Works in OSD menus
• If no LLAPI core is used (for example the official mister cores) then normal USB mode is used and works just as fast/good as Daemonbites
• ALL controller works for ALL cores for example you can use a PSX controller on the NES core
• Not officially supported
• Needs specially compiled LLAPI cores (can get them via update_all)
• Expensive adapters, can DIY but it's a bit of a faff
  
• Waning support
• Doesn't support paddle controllers

[Grumpy-Old-Gamer]

SNAC is limited with no two player and no OSD control unless you use Antonio's version with forked cores

BlisSter is mostly pointless and needs forked cores

Daemonbites are cheap to make low latency and work in every core ...


The one thing to factor in with all these comparisons is the frame times and polling rate of the system. These are usually not considered with comparisons solely based on raw controller testing usually on custom test suite

[Lightwave]

SNAC
Atari adapter supports paddle controllers

Paddles do not work via SNAC with the current 2600/7800 core, only with the older (deprecated) 2600 core.

[LamerDeluxe]

SNAC
Atari adapter supports paddle controllers

Paddles do not work via SNAC with the current 2600/7800 core, only with the older (deprecated) 2600 core.

I know, but the SNAC adapter itself does have paddle support.

[antoniovillena]

There is another version of SNAC, with DB9 connector instead USB3 that supports official cores and also has enhacements for forked cores (updated) like:
-2 player support
-osd manage

Also doesn't require middle snac adapter board because level converters are included into the IO board

[anderse77]

Another problem with SNAC on the NES core is a hit and miss with original controllers using SNAC. Some original nes 004 controllers just does not work.

[ksdomino]

Another problem with SNAC on the NES core is a hit and miss with original controllers using SNAC. Some original nes 004 controllers just does not work.

Same as on original NES (european) hardware. 004 controllers only work on NTSC and PAL(B) consoles. 004e controllers work on all hardware.

Yes it's still a limitation but just posting this as a workaround in case it helps someone.

[CMR]

Deamonbites are great, and in a blind test I doubt anybody could tell them from SNAC.

[Newsdee]

Homemade Daemonbites are the cost of an extension cable and an arduino. If you want to go commercial its expensive.

For digital controls (eg arcade stick) I can recommend the "XinmoTek" boards from AliExpress. They have very good latency and are cheap.

Here is one (xm-10):
https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32877578231.html

There is also single player model that is smaller (xm-08)

But DO NOT get the other "zero delay" boards from there, those have horrible lag... Fortunately you cannot confuse them, they have a wider rectangular shape, are not green, and not Xinmo branded.

[M.Walrus]

The only light gun known to work properly with BlisSTer is the NES zapper due to it's comparatively low input latency requirements. Listing light guns in general as "should work" is at best, misleading. Stick with daemonbite, other quality USB adapters, and SNAC for special peripherals. Keep it simple and avoid the mess of having to deal with forked cores & unique hardware quirks with BlisSTer. BlisSTer does in fact add a bit of lag and this is why other light guns do not work properly with it. Daemonbite or other quality USB adapters with 1000hz polling give similar performance without the hassle.

It's just not worth it IMO, speaking as someone who used BlisSTer for a long while after it first released.

[lagerfeldt]

I'm trying to get this into a chart, accurate or something I missed?

Screenshot 2023-08-26 at 00.45.54.png (386.92 KiB) Viewed 6475 times

I have the BlisSTer board, but the Reflex adapter is looking up on paper at least.

Have purchased one today, looking forward to testing it.