IPF Support

[ransom]

Does this core support IPF's ? if not is it a possibility to add?

[FPGA64]

No it doesnt

[breiztiger]

Ipf would be a very good addition for all floppy base core

[rhester72]

If you search, there's a VERY lengthy thread on this already.

[Malor]

That's an Amiga thread, though, they might not know about it.

Upshot: IPF is a proprietary format, using proprietary code, and none of the Mister devs seem interested in supporting it.

[RealLarry]

I also can remember that this was already discussed somewhere and sometime. But even if IPF - along with KF, SCP and STX - wouldn't get supported, most of the games are available as (patched) ST image and as HDD version, so not a drama IMHO.

[Telemachus]

I also can remember that this was already discussed somewhere and sometime. But even if IPF - along with KF, SCP and STX - wouldn't get supported, most of the games are available as (patched) ST image and as HDD version, so not a drama IMHO.

The situation is similar for the Minimig core, At least for the Amiga you could just say WHDLoad and screw everything else. But that isn't really the experience of how people used the Amiga back in the day.

I'd say supporting an archival format like IPF is essential not just for having that retail copy experience but many cracked games in ADF/ST format are
simply broken.

Not all installs behave correctly either and not all games have installs.

Also setting up an HD can be annoying process for people and I'm not going to point people to some pre-made HD image that often doesn't
cover everything the user wants.

If someone is going to do make their own installs or get the latest install update they need to be able to use an IPF file to create the install
as cracked disk images are not supported anymore.

Ultimately I believe the objective should be about preserving authenticity and not "this is good enough" solutions.
Developing cores is hard but I have to confess I'm starting to see the original objective of this project go a stray and turning into a mad dash
of bare minimum requirements to get over the finish line then dump said core development.

More people could learn from furrtek.

[RealLarry]

@Telemachus absolutely correct. And from the point of view of an "archaeologist" it is important to have a 1:1 copy of the original media. This is what the Floppy Disk Stream Image Repository is doing, for example. But what I said is the factual situation and either one dev has to implement the "archive routines" or the user has to learn how to use and handle the alternatives meanwhile.

[Malor]

IPF is proprietary, and the SPS has never published any code to drive it, AFAIK.

This is a free, GPL-based project. The devs are not going to implement IPF unless someone out there has written an authoritative, GPL-compatible library. The SPS has no interest in doing so, and generally aren't a very good outfit, so they're not going to be releasing any such code. Ergo, there will never be IPF support in Mister. You can marshal all the arguments you like for why it would be a good idea. It will still not happen, at least not unless some third party decides to write an IPF driver from scratch.

If you don't like this, go lean on the SPS, don't bother anyone on this project. Proprietary DLLs don't work for a GPL project.

[Chilli_Vibes]

Ultimately I believe the objective should be about preserving authenticity and not "this is good enough" solutions.

100% Spot on.

[Optiroc]

IPF is closed source, which is quite unfathomable for a preservation project. I couldn’t believe what I was reading when I first encountered the project (SPS etc).

[breiztiger]

IPF has been implement from scratch in several emu like caprice forever (amstrad CPC) and sugarbox (Amstrad CPC)

the authors can help anyone that want to implement real ifp floppy image support

EDIT : without need of SPS DLL

[Retro-Nerd]

And WinUAE. I guess Toni Wilen would glady help when somebody ask him.

[breiztiger]

i think, but i can be wrong, that winuae use SPS DLL

[Retro-Nerd]

True, it's a CapsImg.dll. But on the softpres site there are linux versions too. Aren't there uncompiled source files included too? There is a developer package too for Linux

http://www.softpres.org/download

[rhester72]

No, there is no source available from SPS. The Caprice implementation only covers the portions of the format that apply to the Amstrad AFAIK.

[FPGA64]

This has been beaten to an inch of its life already in

viewtopic.php?t=2730

[Malor]

i think, but i can be wrong, that winuae use SPS DLL

I'm just about certain this is correct. You have to drop the DLL file(s?) into the WinUAE directory for IPF images to work.

[FPGA64]

i think, but i can be wrong, that winuae use SPS DLL

I'm just about certain this is correct. You have to drop the DLL file(s?) into the WinUAE directory for IPF images to work.

Yes thats the way WinUAE handles IPF. It does baffle me why a supposed Archival Format has a closed source reader for it. Surely the whole point is to be open so that in years to come it can still be read without closed source dlls

[desin24]

what about this ?
http://www.softpres.org/news:2011-10-15

[Malor]

I don't think that's GPL compatible, so it's not usable in this project, and probably isn't going to get much wider acceptance. The non-commercial clause just isn't going to fly almost everywhere. WinUAE couldn't use it that way, for instance, nor Cloanto, nor MiSTer.

[Telemachus]

I don't think that's GPL compatible, so it's not usable in this project, and probably isn't going to get much wider acceptance. The non-commercial clause just isn't going to fly almost everywhere. WinUAE couldn't use it that way, for instance, nor Cloanto, nor MiSTer.

" We have finally released the IPF library source code, under the same terms as MAME (non-commercial use)."

MAME = License GPL-2.0-or-later

How much of MAME has gone into the MiSTer Project already?

WinUAE is sold as part of Cloanto's Amiga Forever package so it is understandable why IPF support is externally implemented.

[Malor]

If MAME has a restriction against commercial use, then it's not GPL, full stop. Even if they claim otherwise, a restriction on any downstream use is not compatible with the GPL.

[FPGA64]

I don't think that's GPL compatible, so it's not usable in this project, and probably isn't going to get much wider acceptance. The non-commercial clause just isn't going to fly almost everywhere. WinUAE couldn't use it that way, for instance, nor Cloanto, nor MiSTer.

" We have finally released the IPF library source code, under the same terms as MAME (non-commercial use)."

MAME = License GPL-2.0-or-later

How much of MAME has gone into the MiSTer Project already?

WinUAE is sold as part of Cloanto's Amiga Forever package so it is understandable why IPF support is externally implemented.

Not really Winuae is entirely seperate from Cloanto. Cloanto sell a package with Winuae but Cloanto have no say in how WinUae is developed

[Telemachus]

May have been mentioned earlier but it was also reverse engineered by Olivier Galibert from MESS

Stated as 3-clause BSD licensed, which is GPL-compatible.

https://github.com/mamedev/mame/blob/ma ... /ipf_dsk.h

I suggest if anyone has any further questions they would be best directed to Mr. Vince who is the project leader.

http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=782660&postcount=39 To which he stated,

"I think this can be put to rest now...?! The source is there and can be used to extract whatever kind of data you would like to access."

[Chris23235]

First and foremost any format besides .ST would need a cylce exact simulation. MiSTery is not cycle exact and can't support IPF or STX.

[Malor]

The A500 Minimig core is cycle-exact, and the ST is a far simpler machine, so that shouldn't be out of reach there, either.

[Telemachus]

The GitHub page for MiSTery suggests a lot of cycle accuracy.

"Cycle accurate STe GLUE+MMU combo (re-created from the original schematics)
Cycle accurate FX68K CPU core
Cycle accurate Blitter offered by Jorge Cwik
Mostly cycle accurate shifter based on schematics made from reverse engineering"

It isn't clear if using an Atari 520ST config would be completely cycle accurate or if the remaining inaccuracies are for later models.

But yeah, the Atari 520ST is the common/popular and simple model of the series.

I don't know if it has been stated that the .IPF format would have the same limits as .STX when it comes to cycle accuracy.
IPF driver would certainly be handled by the ARM CPU.

On the Amiga side of things I'm pretty sure WinUAE is not cycle accurate in every aspect and it doesn't have a problem with IPF.

[Chris23235]

The GitHub page for MiSTery suggests a lot of cycle accuracy.

"Cycle accurate STe GLUE+MMU combo (re-created from the original schematics)
Cycle accurate FX68K CPU core
Cycle accurate Blitter offered by Jorge Cwik
Mostly cycle accurate shifter based on schematics made from reverse engineering"

It isn't clear if using an Atari 520ST config would be completely cycle accurate or if the remaining inaccuracies are for later models.

But yeah, the Atari 520ST is the common/popular and simple model of the series.

I don't know if it has been stated that the .IPF format would have the same limits as .STX when it comes to cycle accuracy.
IPF driver would certainly be handled by the ARM CPU.

On the Amiga side of things I'm pretty sure WinUAE is not cycle accurate in every aspect and it doesn't have a problem with IPF.

In order to get cycle exact simulation all parts of the machine must be cycle accurate and they must communicate in exactly the same way with each other as in the original machine. This means the cycle accuracy has to be expanded to the communication of the components and peripherals. In this case it would mean to implement a cycle accurate floppy disc controller to the simulation. If you plan on using the ARM, it would mean to syncronize this FDC with the ARM.
I don't say it can't be done (I have no clue about such an implementation on the technical level), but for sure it would be no trivial task. The question is for what purpose? The general idea of IPF is that it should be possible to recreate physical media with the exact specifications of the original from the digital data. The FPGA doesn't work with physical floppy discs, so it seems rather useless.
Are there really games out there that exist only in IPF or STX format?

[Telemachus]

Are there really games out there that exist only in IPF or STX format?

I believe that is the case but the better case is that accurate backups vs bad cracked ones should offer better feedback on
improving things which gives more confidence in the process of bug fixing.
There are a lot of bad dumps out there even non cracked ones.
Fortunately there are communities dedicated to verifying quality dumps and we should really only be using old cracked backups as novelty nostalgia.