The Result of My Search for a Great MiSTer Display

[FoxbatStargazer]

WIth the Arcooda you're partly paying for the ability to directly input 15khz analog sources into an LCD and have them not look like total garbage. Kind of irrelevant feature for Mister with its HDMI option.

[Onizuka]

Are there other panels purporting sub 2ms response times? I was under the impression that was a main feature along with 4:3?

[thorr]

Totally agree! I have a single PVM for everything 480i and under. I’m hoping to cover the rest of my bases with this. Especially for TATE games.

I use a VGA CRT monitor for everything else. I also built an arcade cabinet (just finishing it up actually) with a rotatable CRT screen and interchangeable control panels so I can play pretty much anything 480i and under on that. Does your PVM do 480p? Many do, and that could be a solution for the rest of your needs (similar to my VGA monitor).

[FoxbatStargazer]

Are there other panels purporting sub 2ms response times? I was under the impression that was a main feature along with 4:3?

Bob measured input lag, that is not the same thing as response time. For "gaming" computer monitors, 1-2ms input lag is very much the norm, response time that low is very much harder to come by. (Basically 240hz OLED!)

You can think of input lag as the time it takes to register the start of a change. Response time is how long it takes for the change to complete, for the LCD pixel to fully transition from one color to another.

[Onizuka]

Totally agree! I have a single PVM for everything 480i and under. I’m hoping to cover the rest of my bases with this. Especially for TATE games.

I use a VGA CRT monitor for everything else. I also built an arcade cabinet (just finishing it up actually) with a rotatable CRT screen and interchangeable control panels so I can play pretty much anything 480i and under on that. Does your PVM do 480p? Many do, and that could be a solution for the rest of your needs (similar to my VGA monitor).

Great setup! My PVM is 480i max (OEV 203). The flat panel is to cover everything the PVM can’t. Might be worth a look for a CRT PC monitor or upgrade to a mutiformat PVM. Wife will likely kill me though! How far out are we till a sub 1k OLED rocking awesome response times

[El_Syd]

Are there other panels purporting sub 2ms response times? I was under the impression that was a main feature along with 4:3?

Bob measured input lag, that is not the same thing as response time. For "gaming" computer monitors, 1-2ms input lag is very much the norm, response time that low is very much harder to come by. (Basically 240hz OLED!)

You can think of input lag as the time it takes to register the start of a change. Response time is how long it takes for the change to complete, for the LCD pixel to fully transition from one color to another.

Which gaming monitors have 1-2ms of input lag? I'm not seeing anything on RTINGS.

[PikWik]

Are there other panels purporting sub 2ms response times? I was under the impression that was a main feature along with 4:3?

Bob measured input lag, that is not the same thing as response time. For "gaming" computer monitors, 1-2ms input lag is very much the norm, response time that low is very much harder to come by. (Basically 240hz OLED!)

You can think of input lag as the time it takes to register the start of a change. Response time is how long it takes for the change to complete, for the LCD pixel to fully transition from one color to another.

Which gaming monitors have 1-2ms of input lag? I'm not seeing anything on RTINGS.

sadly, none

8-9ms is where flat panel technology maxes out with input lag in the 60hz range.
this can be lowered when you go up to 120hz-240hz, but thats not something the MiSTer can do.

and keep in mind input lag is different than response time. which is also not that great on a flat panel, usually doubling what the input lag is (_16ms).

when you are looking at those rtings ratings, be sure youre looking at the 60hz tests, and not the 240hz ratings, thinking thats the performance youre getting out of the MiSTer.

https://www.rtings.com/monitor/tools/table/104018

[El_Syd]

Bob measured input lag, that is not the same thing as response time. For "gaming" computer monitors, 1-2ms input lag is very much the norm, response time that low is very much harder to come by. (Basically 240hz OLED!)

You can think of input lag as the time it takes to register the start of a change. Response time is how long it takes for the change to complete, for the LCD pixel to fully transition from one color to another.

Which gaming monitors have 1-2ms of input lag? I'm not seeing anything on RTINGS.

sadly, none

8-9ms is where flat panel technology maxes out with input lag in the 60hz range.
this can be lowered when you go up to 120hz-240hz, but thats not something the MiSTer can do.

and keep in mind input lag is different than response time. which is also not that great on a flat panel, usually doubling what the input lag is (_16ms).

when you are looking at those rtings ratings, be sure youre looking at the 60hz tests, and not the 240hz ratings, thinking thats the performance youre getting out of the MiSTer.

https://www.rtings.com/monitor/tools/table/104018

This is what I suspected. As soon as I saw mention of 1-2ms, I was thinking that there must be some kind of mistake here. And yes, I am definitely only paying attention to the 60Hz test results.

What you mentioned about maxing out at 8-9ms matches up with what I had previously saved here:

https://www.rtings.com/monitor/tools/table/110204

Not too impressive in my opinion.

[PikWik]

the input lag of computer monitors is fine for me (and a large number of retro gamers on twitch). there are people who play extremely precise and input sensitive games on modern computer monitors. i think the issue most retro gamers have with modern displays is the response time and the smearing/blurring you get with fast movements. but at this point, i think that LCD blur has become tolerable and “normal” to most people.

and i remember someone testing CRTs and reporting how a CRT has 8ms of perceived input lag, when testing at the center of the screeen - https://www.resetera.com/threads/crts-h ... ncy.40628/

[PikWik]

i guess all thats to say, the MiSTer plays great on whatever monitor you have

[Insert Disk Two]

I am looking for a 24" monitor, 1080p panel. Has to support freesync or gsync, IPS and no visible movement blur. Something I can buy right now from shops.

Suggestions? Thanks!

[lagerfeldt]

Yes, that would be e.g. AOC 24G2ZU/BK 23.8” 1920 x 1080 @ 240 Hz with VRR (FreeSync), IPS. In stock.
https://aoc.com/gaming/products/monitors/24g2zu-bk

-

I suggest a 16:10 panel for the MiSTer, e.g. ASUS ProArt PA248CRV 24.1” 1920 x 1200 @ 75 Hz with VRR (Edit: MediaSync over DP - not Adaptive-Sync), IPS.
https://www.asus.com/displays-desktops/ ... -pa248crv/

Better integer scaling potential, better use of on-screen space, and smaller black borders.

Available models and "in stock" depend on where you are in the world, but there's nothing in your location field Got my ASUS ProArt this very morning in Denmark.

[Insert Disk Two]

What about this one?

https://www.amazon.de/PA248QV-Asus-Moni ... 44&sr=8-16

[lagerfeldt]

Very close in specs and a great screen. At least €100 cheaper as well.

Sightly less bright (300 vs 350 with the PA248CRV), missing HDR according to the spec sheet, connections on the back are slightly different, but nothing of consequence really. Edit; Difference in VRR - Adaptive-Sync (QV) vs only MediaSync (CRV)!

Looks like the QV is the slightly older version and the PA248CRV is the updated model (Edit: except VRR type!)

[lagerfeldt]

IMG_1732.jpg (12.36 MiB) Viewed 5493 times

Very good colors. Photo taken with iPhone of the ProArt PA248CRV.

Screen settings:

User1
Brightness: 100
Contrast: 90
Saturation: 50
Hue: 50
Color Temp: 5500K
RGB Tuning: 50/50/50
Black Level: 50
Sharpness: 0
Trace Free: 20*
Aspect Control: Dot to Dot
Input Range: Auto
Blue Light Filter: 0
Media Sync: N/A
HDR: N/A

*Trace Free = Asus overdrive tech. 100 = minimum ghosting, but maximum coronas (overshoot). I prefer ghosting/trails to coronas any day, so a setting of 0 or 20 is better than the recommended 40 or default 60. A good test is Pang with the red balls moving on blue background.

Alien vs Predator
Video Processing:
Horz Filter: GS_SHARPNESS_60
Vert Filter: SLA_DK_080_BR_080
Scan Filter: SAME AS VERT
Gamma Correction: GAMMA_130
Shadow Mask 1x - SONY TRINITRON [1968]

Generally I use 55-65 Gaussian Sharpness (Blur), Adaptive Scanlines of 70/90 to 80/100, and CRT Simulation gamma to ramp and warm it a bit. But AvP needs a different type of gamma. I like the MegaAGS shadow mask, which I use for both C64 and Amiga and for some arcades when the Trinitron is a bit too obvious.

[Insert Disk Two]

Looks great. How do you deak with AGS as it is heavily modified for 1080p and not 1200p?

[lagerfeldt]

Indeed, so I still use integer scaling and get 5x scaling, but using 1080 out 1200 vertical pixels. I comment out the 1080 related stuff in the AGS Amiga exception in the INI and keep the custom_aspect_ratio_1=40:27, which I select in the core setttings. With the default AGS scanline/mask settings and a custom gamma I get a great pic and no shimmering. 60 px border top/bottom, I live with that - AGS is still awesome.

[Insert Disk Two]

One other question please

I have noticed that on assume panels on large chunks of certain colours (mostly cyan and orange) a faint vertical jailbar can be seen. At home I have 2 monitors that have this effect, I one of them a cheap 1080p HP monitor and the other is an Eizo (not cheap!) 25" at 1200p. I hate this effect, I have no idea how it happens or what to look for in specifications before buying a monitor.

Have you ever come across this effect and does the Asus you purchased have it?

If you want to check properly, I display a solid colour on screen, cyan or orange and look closely.

[lagerfeldt]

Hm, with a HDMI input? No, but it’s common otherwise, usually cap related.

Hold your horses for two more days - just bought the QV version as well because of a VRR difference I missed. Also got a HDMI-DP cable to test MediaSync (if possible with MiSTer) vs. Adaptive-Sync in the QV.

I can test a brand new ProArt PA248CRV vs ditto ProArt PA248QV vs Eizo 2456-WT/BK (sans VRR) and post results. Eizo 2456 has been my goto 16:10, but is 61 Hz tops.

[Insert Disk Two]

It is not a "technical problem" (like caps problem), it is a problem with the technology they use for certain monitors. Basically, if you look up close you can see that sub-pixels are not exactly horizontally distributed, resulting in a jailbar effect. I looked up the problem online and some people can see it. The higher the frequency, the more visible these lines become:

https://linustechtips.com/topic/690124- ... n-monitor/
https://www.dell.com/community/Monitors ... -p/5141001
https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Desktop-V ... -p/7602044

My Eizo with the same exact issue is model FlexScan EV2485-BK
I did get in touch with them about this issue and they said it is not an issue

Since then I am super wary about buying monitors. Once you see the issue you will see it every time.

Effect looks like this:

Vep4EkV-1339439608.jpg (170.01 KiB) Viewed 3714 times

[Lightwave]

I can test a brand new ProArt PA248CRV vs ditto ProArt PA248QV vs Eizo 2456-WT/BK (sans VRR) and post results.

I'd be interested to hear the results of this comparison.

I've been using a PA248QV for a while and I'm happy with it, but now want a dual monitor setup and was wondering about the PA248CRV as it's newer.

[lagerfeldt]

Should arrive tomorrow, I’ll begin testing immediately.

[Koston]

This is a bit of a curveball, so take it with a pinch of salt.

My "great display" turned out to be the cheapest LG 65" 4K I could find a few years ago, iirc 650 EUR. I had no intention of using it for gaming, but it turned out to have almost no perceivable latency and syncs to everything I've thrown at it, with the unfortunate exception of 1920x1440 resolution. I use either 2560x1440 or 1920x1200 normally, with integer scaling and vsync_adjust=2. The viewing distance, size of 4K pixels and generously applied CRT style filtering make any potential scaling artifacts undetectable, I don't bother with my CRTs any more except for serious speedrunning (then also use original hardware).

I know there's a lot to improve in technical specs of my ghetto TV. But it's big, flat, cheap, lightweight, maintenance-free (I've had to service every damn CRT I've had and none still are/were anywhere near "perfect") and thanks to the newer video filters, I am very happy to finally be (mostly) rid of CRTs

With movies, the shortcomings of this peasant class telly-box are much more apparent..

JICXDxJ.png (1.26 MiB) Viewed 3716 times

xTw6tFd.png (1.25 MiB) Viewed 3716 times

[lagerfeldt]

Pivoting a 65". Brave man

The newest LG C-series with instant gaming response and VRR are gaming beasts, not the optimum resolution or aspect ratio for retro gaming, but looks pretty nice here. I have an LG 77" for movies and PS5 myself.

PS. Rad poster you got there

[Koston]

Pivoting a 65". Brave man

The TV is very lightweight, only problem really is getting it level. Vertically it's fairly easy, but turning back horizontally was a pain so, if you look closely, I superglued a small bubble level on the right side bottom of the TV

The newest LG C-series with instant gaming response and VRR are gaming beasts, not the optimum resolution or aspect ratio for retro gaming, but looks pretty nice here. I have an LG 77" for movies and PS5 myself.

Sweet, a 77" is quite massive I'd like a C-series, but they're far beyond my price range.. And I'm still not aware of a single LG that would be capable of 1920x1440. Aspect ratio can't really be helped, selection of 4:3 screens on the market is tiny and overpriced, I wouldn't bother unless I was building a custom cab and specifically needed it to be more portable than a CRT would make it.

[GreyAreaUK]

The TV is very lightweight, only problem really is getting it level. Vertically it's fairly easy, but turning back horizontally was a pain so, if you look closely, I superglued a small bubble level on the right side bottom of the TV

That is, frankly, a genius idea that I shall absolutely steal should I find myself in a similar situation

[lagerfeldt]

Aspect ratio can't really be helped, selection of 4:3 screens on the market is tiny and overpriced

4:3 digital screens are very old, bad tech, such as the Dell 2007 or similar. In terms of aspect ratio on modern displays 16:10 1200p is generally better for arcade than 16:9.

[dmckean]

The last 4:3 panels were all manufactured in 2009 and have lots of issues compared to modern panels or any type.

[virtuali]

4:3 panels are still being done today:

https://www.amazon.com/Acer-America-Cor ... B01LJUNTZC
https://www.amazon.com/Dell-P1917S-48cm ... B01G3459GG
https://www.amazon.com/ViewSonic-VA951S ... B00NM75OZ4

[Koston]

For a custom cab build, one quite interesting potential alternative is mounting a regular widescreen display vertically and using a bezel to make it 4:3. There's plenty of options to hide the extra on top and bottom without the cab looking like a compromise. But, not sure what choices there are for rotating the image or how they affect image, latency etc.