Groovy_MiSTer Core

[alexxnr]

Spent an hour or so playing games like Chase HQ and Space Harrier with the audio routed via my HDMI switch, which has stereo out, to the speakers I use for my main MiSTer and video out via the MiSTer to my BVM.

I have a separate MiSTer connected to a VGA monitor via direct video and it would be a very cool to use that MiSTer for 31khz games from Sega like Scud Racer or Sega Rally.

Did you notice any input latency ?

Hello.
Sorry for jumping into the conversation.
As pshakis said in a previous comment, the processing is below the frame.
We are talking about 3-4ms when a frame at 15khz needs 16ms.
I'm no expert but I think removing the graphics card from the equation saves a lot of time.

[thorr]

Incredible. I am out of the loop on light gun options running from anything but the MiSTer. Is it possible to get traditional light guns such as the NES Zapper or the Playstation Namco Guncon working in arcade games and consoles even though there is a tiny delay involved? Maybe with run ahead or something? If so, how do you connect the light gun to the PC?

[Bazset]

Would there be any way to get this to work using a Raspberry Pi instead of a PC? Any idea if this would increase the latency? Thanks

[alexxnr]

Would there be any way to get this to work using a Raspberry Pi instead of a PC? Any idea if this would increase the latency? Thanks

Hello.
In theory it would be possible, it works on retoarch, mednafen and groovymame, just modify the binary and compile it for the architecture a pi runs on.
But the question is, how would it differ from an rgbpi?
I understand that the advantage of this is to be able to run games that require a larger cpu than a raspberry saving you the problems that comes with a PC graphics card…
While it is true that it brings the solutions of the mister framework, such as scandouble, positioning and more things that may come in the future, and that the rgbpi does not have it, but I do not see what else can bring ...

[psakhis]

Would there be any way to get this to work using a Raspberry Pi instead of a PC? Any idea if this would increase the latency? Thanks

Sure, it's possible. In fact, a Gb lan it's the only requirement.

I can't say about latency in this case, some rpi models are very low powered boards and doesn't run last versions of mame on a good conditions.

[Calamity]

Would there be any way to get this to work using a Raspberry Pi instead of a PC? Any idea if this would increase the latency? Thanks

When using this solution, basically all latency you get is that produced by how long it takes to emulate each frame. My results were obtained on a relatively old PC, so probably testing on a newer and more powerful cpu would result in even lower latency.

For the same reason, using a super weak cpu like that on the Pi can only result in higher latency and less stability.

[psakhis]

Incredible. I am out of the loop on light gun options running from anything but the MiSTer. Is it possible to get traditional light guns such as the NES Zapper or the Playstation Namco Guncon working in arcade games and consoles even though there is a tiny delay involved? Maybe with run ahead or something? If so, how do you connect the light gun to the PC?

I didn't tested my guncon2 on it but in theory will work as another input device. The reads from lightgun doesn't matter what crt they are on.

[zoopster]

Spent an hour or so playing games like Chase HQ and Space Harrier with the audio routed via my HDMI switch, which has stereo out, to the speakers I use for my main MiSTer and video out via the MiSTer to my BVM.

I have a separate MiSTer connected to a VGA monitor via direct video and it would be a very cool to use that MiSTer for 31khz games from Sega like Scud Racer or Sega Rally.

Did you notice any input latency ?

No but there were a few hangs during gameplay which required a reset.

[Bazset]

Being able to use a raspberry pi 5 with this would be a dream come true for me. I don’t want to have to connect it to a pc. I’d be able to play model 2 games on my pvm using the pi connected to my mister! Please make this a reality lol

[Bristles]

To be fair, you don't need this core to use a Pi with a CRT, you can use a Pi hat, such as the Pi2SCART. Then you get to use whatever MAME, or emulator you want, and the resolution, and refresh rate should be the same as the original hardware.

[akeley]

To be fair, you don't need this core to use a Pi with a CRT, you can use a Pi hat, such as the Pi2SCART. Then you get to use whatever MAME, or emulator you want, and the resolution, and refresh rate should be the same as the original hardware.

I used to do that but the advantage of PC is huge. Less lag, much more games, etc.

[Bristles]

They both have their advantages, and disadvantages.
Pros for Pi - Cheap, tiny device, thriving community, thriving devs/coders/hobbyists, open source, etc.. easy to connect to CRT, or modern LCD.
Cons - Not great for newer systems to emulate, such as Dreamcast, Saturn, MAME 3D systems, PS2, etc... Needs support, so Pi 5 won't be fully utilized for a long time.
Pros for PC - As fast as your wallet can handle, able to manage systems such as PS2, PS3, Switch, Wii/Wii-U, Xbox/ Xbox 360, etc.. Plenty of I/O, and able to connect a multitude of devices, minimal latency on decent hardware, modern shaders for CRT emulation - Megabezel in Retroarch is extremely close in look to a real CRT. OS of choice, Windows, Linux, etc.. Modern techniques to improve emulation - Z-buffer on PS1, higher resolutions, texture packs, 60fps unlocks, etc...
Cons for PC - Can be expensive if you want the best, power hungry, not exactly an elegant solution for emulation - Windows OS + front-end, etc.. Although, Batocera goes a long way to a near console experience. Noisy, if you need good cooling. Space ? Can take up a fair chunk of real estate.

I don't see the point of using a Pi 5, because, like I said, it can connect to a CRT via an analogue style hat, and you don't need an expensive Mister system.
And, would a Pi run Model 2 at good enough fps ?
Model 2 is Daytona, Sega Rally Championship, Virtua Cop 1 & 2. etc...

[thorr]

I didn't tested my guncon2 on it but in theory will work as another input device. The reads from lightgun doesn't matter what crt they are on.

Thanks! I see that it is USB plus a sync signal, so that makes sense. I just ordered one from ebay.

[Flain]

And, would a Pi run Model 2 at good enough fps ?
Model 2 is Daytona, Sega Rally Championship, Virtua Cop 1 & 2. etc...

Incase anyone is wondering, i tested it and the answer is no - it runs around 20-40% FPS in games i tested on pi 5. I haven't tested a lot of games though. There are faster SBCs out there than the pi 5 though and plenty of mini PC options too.

Some MiSTer users have a pi attached to their MiSTer already for MIDI emulation - they could run this and just plug the ethernet in to open up more games while waiting for FPGA implementations of them . After all a pi 5 does do dreamcast just fine.

[lroby74]

I would like to express my opinion, I apologize if it is different from yours but honestly I don't like this idea, the Mister is absurdly cool as he is.
A little box that consumes very little power, very convenient to use, which does not emulate but reproduces the hardware, easily connected to our beloved CRTs and with SNAC adapters, capable of using the original peripherals, including guns.
I find the idea of "wasting" the Mister just for PC emulation (with all the associated defects including the presence of a heavy, resource-consuming operating system and everything else) absurd.
It's clear that there are fewer games than Mame, but I wonder one thing: is it really necessary to have them? The Mister already has several hundred by now and they will increase more and more, honestly at this point I would prefer greater efforts to increase the number of cores and improve those currently already present.
Thanks for your understanding
My 2 cents

[akator]

which does not emulate but reproduces the hardware

This is a misconception. Most of the MiSTer cores are not exact reproductions of the original hardware. A better way to describe FPGA is "hardware emulation" instead of the "software emulation" applications we use on Windows, Linux, and macOS. It's still emulation.

There's some good explanations about this here: viewtopic.php?t=7198&hilit=cycle+exact

[akeley]

Anyone has right to an opinion and that's fine, but the bottom line is : if you don't like it, don't use it.

Please, let's not derail this awesome-news topic with splitting hair over what MiSTer is or isn't for.

[akator]

This Groovy MiSTer Core is pretty cool. Great work. I'm looking forward to seeing how it develops.

[psakhis]

I would like to express my opinion, I apologize if it is different from yours but honestly I don't like this idea, the Mister is absurdly cool as he is.
A little box that consumes very little power, very convenient to use, which does not emulate but reproduces the hardware, easily connected to our beloved CRTs and with SNAC adapters, capable of using the original peripherals, including guns.
I find the idea of "wasting" the Mister just for PC emulation (with all the associated defects including the presence of a heavy, resource-consuming operating system and everything else) absurd.
It's clear that there are fewer games than Mame, but I wonder one thing: is it really necessary to have them? The Mister already has several hundred by now and they will increase more and more, honestly at this point I would prefer greater efforts to increase the number of cores and improve those currently already present.
Thanks for your understanding
My 2 cents

Hi mate. This project is not going to replace arcade/console cores, i love them as much as everyone.
Project began by wanting to find a replacement for modded gpu cards for 15khz and it happened that MiSTer met the requirements for it. Probably if we found a cheaper card we wouldn't have thought about MiSTer.

[Calamity]

The MiSTer project is already awesome as it is. This is not an attempt of "filling the gaps" in the MiSTer project.

The real reason for this to exist is to provide traditional emulators with a finally perfect solution for analogue output to a CRT.

This is an old desire of us.

In fact we'd be glad to use a cheaper, smaller board. But the MiSTer platform looked like the obvious place to start since many of us already have one around.

If there's enough interest and this core might eventually be included, pure MiSTer userbase would have a new way to tinker with their device, and we wouldn't need to fork it (win-win).

[LamerDeluxe]

This project is a fantastic idea. Like the Steam Deck or Vita being used to stream from PC or PS5. I've also wanted to be able to connect a 15Khz monitor to a PC for a very long time, primarily for correct display of arcade cores.

I love all the extra options people have been developing for the MiSTer, like SAM, TTY2OLED, mt32-pi, YC cores, the remote app etc.

[CartoonDonkey]

This is awesome, and the MiSTer becomes even more of a Swiss army knife!
Go!

[matijaerceg]

This is amazing.

I wonder if this could one day replace a generic video card solution such as emudriver so that we can run modern 240p pixel art games at 15khz easily, like sonic mania

ie. A virtual display driver that windows sees as a second monitor..

[Allejo]

This is amazing news! I tested it yesterday and it's great to be able to play on my CRT arcade games that don't have a core for them yet, and even games that probably will never get a core because they may be too much for Mister (like 3D arcade games)

I have a question, does the DE10-nano have any limitations compared to the video cards people use for CRT Emudriver? Like, do heavier games or heavier systems emulated use more resources from the DE-10 Nano or something like this, or it could theorectically run PS2, PS3, Switch emulators for example?

[antibolo]

How feasible would it be to implement a SDL video driver that targets this, so that it could be used with any SDL-based application?

[Vespa]

Can I run Steam games or emulators like Dolphin and then output out through the mister like I can do with a GPU setup with CRTEmu?

[dshadoff]

I think this is really interesting - once I was able to understand what it actually is, and how it is to be used.

The MiSTer hardware is capable of lots of interesting things, even if they aren’t all self-contained videogames. I think it’s pretty cool when people create new uses which are slightly outside of what people are expecting (such as MiSTer Laggy).

I think this might be a good thing to include in the “utilities” category (with memory test, mister lagyy, etc.), assuming you are aiming to make it official.

[psakhis]

This is amazing news! I tested it yesterday and it's great to be able to play on my CRT arcade games that don't have a core for them yet, and even games that probably will never get a core because they maybe be too much for mister (like 3D arcade games)

I have a question, does the DE10-nano have any limitations compared to the video cards people use for CRT Emudriver? Like, do heavier games or heavier systems emulated use more resources from the DE-10 Nano or something like this, or it could theorectically run PS2, PS3, Switch emulators for example?

With de10-nano and dynamic pll we have free pixel clock, so no limitations in this sense.
The only limitation is resolution, a very high resolution rgb888 with Gb eth could be slow (speed tested isn't full Gb, it's more 500mbps).

Ofc, things can be optimized with rgb565, lz4, etc. but isn't target this high resolutions for a 15khz CRT.

[thorr]

In my opinion, projects like this and almost anything else someone comes up with are absolutely welcome. In this particular case, it is a major accomplishment for passionate CRT owners. If you are not a CRT owner or only want MiSTer things to be completely self contained, this project isn't hurting you, just don't use it. Another example I would someday like to see is the MiSTer be used for music synth cores. Why does it need to be only for games and computers? It doesn't. It's an amazing FPGA product that can be used for anything anyone makes for it.

[Calamity]

How feasible would it be to implement a SDL video driver that targets this, so that it could be used with any SDL-based application?

This wouldn't work because the way synchronization is done is critical to avoid video glitches, so you need to have full control on the game/application loop.

Can I run Steam games or emulators like Dolphin and then output out through the mister like I can do with a GPU setup with CRTEmu?

This will require special builds for each piece of software that implements the video output to MiSTer.

Currently available builds: Mednafen, Retroarch and MAME(Groovy).