The State of DACs for the MiSTer and Direct Video

[Atohmdiy]

HD Fury i very well aware of this thread and the test you did. About this halo issue, they answered me this :

Hi there

There are no adjustments on the hdfury to overcome this. The hdfury has been tested here
https://tinyurl.com/dactestresults

and comes in as a reference DAC.

Usually halos are caused by cabling that is too long or poorly shielded.

In other word there is no problem, it's your cable...
Hard to accept for a "reference" product that is sold 10 times the price.

So if i resume. HD Fury have this annoying halo effect and Icy Box have sync issue.
If you want a good dac you need to buy the Startech but you need a sync combiner after it because for an obscure reason the composite_sync=1 option doesn't work.

About the Reflex Prism, i assume we are at the second batch. Do you know the price it was sold when it was available last year ?
I see there is a RGB/YCbCr switch which is great. They say "Video levels tuned to spec but also user adjustable" so i assume that even if their dac doesn't test right, there still a way to perfect it. Do you know how to do it ? Is there trimpot in the pcb or some kind of micro controller ?

[thorr]

FYI - The device that I use that works really really well for me and I think is no longer made uses an Explore EP9851 DAC. http://img.hqew.com/file/others/500000- ... 596731.pdf

If there are any devices today that use that DAC, that is what I recommend for the MiSTer. It has perfect color and no sync issues.

Edit: I found this discussion that might be helpful https://www.reddit.com/r/fpgagaming/com ... mivga_dac/

My device looks like this, but it is not this (I haven't tried this particular one). https://www.ebay.com/itm/204572800505 I have three different devices that all look the same. One works all the time, one has sync issues some of the time, and one barely works at all with the MiSTer. The guts inside are different.

Edit 2: The DAC is from the same company that the Retrocastle one on the spreadsheet uses that is 'perfect', so anything that has an Explore DAC is probably going to be good.

Edit 3: I just found this, but I don't know if it will work for component video (my current device has a switch on it for VGA/component, but it is not in an ideal location). I just ordered one for my Dell SVGA monitor. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CX1QNTXP I switch the HDMI between the component converter I have and a device like this for my SVGA monitor using a passive HDMI switch (these are not all created equal either). If necessary, it could be combined with one of these (which I also have and no longer need thanks to GroovyMiSTer): https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/174166352619

[Atohmdiy]

FYI - The device that I use that works really really well for me and I think is no longer made uses an Explore EP9851 DAC. http://img.hqew.com/file/others/500000- ... 596731.pdf

If there are any devices today that use that DAC, that is what I recommend for the MiSTer. It has perfect color and no sync issues.

Edit: I found this discussion that might be helpful https://www.reddit.com/r/fpgagaming/com ... mivga_dac/

My device looks like this, but it is not this (I haven't tried this particular one). https://www.ebay.com/itm/204572800505 I have three different devices that all look the same. One works all the time, one has sync issues some of the time, and one barely works at all with the MiSTer. The guts inside are different.

Edit 2: The DAC is from the same company that the Retrocastle one on the spreadsheet uses that is 'perfect', so anything that has an Explore DAC is probably going to be good.

Edit 3: I just found this, but I don't know if it will work for component video (my current device has a switch on it for VGA/component, but it is not in an ideal location). I just ordered one for my Dell SVGA monitor. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CX1QNTXP I switch the HDMI between the component converter I have and a device like this for my SVGA monitor using a passive HDMI switch (these are not all created equal either). If necessary, it could be combined with one of these (which I also have and no longer need thanks to GroovyMiSTer): https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/174166352619

It is a possible good find. A quick research of these Explore dac shows most of these converter are discontinued, it's an old IC.
But you need to be careful, the fact this converter use a EP94Z1E doesn't necessary mean it's great. Chinese are famous for errors in their implementation and high variability in the components they used. It is well showed in the spreadsheet.

[darknezz19]

Hi Kuro and everyone here. Thank you for the in depth testing of these dacs. A guy by the name of John on the facebook mister group has suggested this one.

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805242583899.html

Has anyone tested this one? Says it uses a nx3303b dac chip.

[thorr]

Edit 3: I just found this, but I don't know if it will work for component video (my current device has a switch on it for VGA/component, but it is not in an ideal location). I just ordered one for my Dell SVGA monitor. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CX1QNTXP

It is a possible good find. A quick research of these Explore dac shows most of these converter are discontinued, it's an old IC.
But you need to be careful, the fact this converter use a EP94Z1E doesn't necessary mean it's great. Chinese are famous for errors in their implementation and high variability in the components they used. It is well showed in the spreadsheet.

I finally received this and tested it. It works and looks beautiful, but unfortunately it has trouble holding onto the sync. The picture jumps occasionally. It does work with component video though (unstable as I said). Perhaps with a sync on green mod it would work better. I think I have the parts to test this, but it will be awhile before I could get to it. Also, I am not 100% sure the one I received is exactly the one I ordered. It has no markings on it, and the company name on the bag it came in is different than the company name on Amazon.

I also tried my Icy Box one and it works, but takes awhile to sync. It is also off-center a bit compared to my analog output on the same MiSTer. I then compared my trusty old Explore EP9851 DAC one that I use all the time, and it syncs right away.

[thorr]

Hi Kuro and everyone here. Thank you for the in depth testing of these dacs. A guy by the name of John on the facebook mister group has suggested this one.

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805242583899.html

Has anyone tested this one? Says it uses a nx3303b dac chip.

I just ordered it and will see how it goes. It's super cheap.

[cursedverses]

Hi everyone,

I'm loving the reviews of the various DACs here, but wondered is there a spreadsheet or similar I can refer to? Maybe if some of the issues are categorised? Or is there a recommendation based on budgets/etc.?

[akeley]

Hi everyone,

I'm loving the reviews of the various DACs here, but wondered is there a spreadsheet or similar I can refer to? Maybe if some of the issues are categorised? Or is there a recommendation based on budgets/etc.?

It's in the link from the first post: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

The problem is that manufacturers often change internals but keep the same casing so it can be a bit of lottery. There can also be some other issues as seen in the comments above, and also not all TV sets get along with Direct Video.

If you can find a cheap one from that list it's still worth a shot I think, but also maybe it's worth considering waiting for the new analogue add on board to be available via MiSTer hardware sellers (it's supposed to have better specs than the old one).

[darknezz19]

I bought the Moread with good ratings last week and it's still the good chip inside. Just an fyi.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075JFKP71?re ... tails&th=1

[thorr]

I bought the Moread with good ratings last week and it's still the good chip inside. Just an fyi.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075JFKP71?re ... tails&th=1

I also have that one. It works "fine" but it doesn't have good ratings. It requires the special hdmi_limited=2 mode in the ini file because the colors are wacky with it otherwise. At this point, that might be the best affordable one known to work without major sync issues, but the colors aren't as good as they could be.

Edit: Oh, there is a new 2024 model! I did not know this. Great!

How do you get it open to look inside without breaking it?

[darknezz19]

The front plastic that covers the vga port pops out. I slide a razor blade in between vga cover plastic and the rest of the cover. Then pop out. It's a thin gap, be careful and slide the blade where the vga cover plastic is the thinnest, to get the blade in. then move it down the slide where the plastic is thicker, and pop it.

[akeley]

I also have that one. It works "fine" but it doesn't have good ratings. It requires the special hdmi_limited=2 mode in the ini file because the colors are wacky with it otherwise. At this point, that might be the best affordable one known to work without major sync issues, but the colors aren't as good as they could be.

I think the main issue and testing done by OP is about brightness levels and doesn't particularly concern itself with colour (though I might be wrong).

This can be indeed a big problem with some of the DACs ranked low in his paper. I must admit, I was initially skeptical about that (as you can see in my posts on the first page) but that's becasue I was away from my main hardware and also had memories of things looking very good. But, after I have done some testing myself recently I think I owe OP an apology - in some cases the difference is really, really big. This is mostly about blacks being crushed, examples of which can be seem in the OPs pictures. And it can be hard or sometimes maybe impossible to correct with TV controls.

So even if often a bad-chipped DAC might look "great" (it also depends on game/scene) there will be moments when it will look terrible. Of course it can be difficult to figure out without reference pictures and/or OG hardware, but it is certainly a thing.

[thorr]

The one I got recently that was supposed to have the Explore DAC in it does not have an Explore DAC in it. Big surprise. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CX1QNTXP It has an NX3303B P16K 22.00 2248 chip in it. Like I said, it works sort of with great color, but the picture is not completely stable. I guess I will return it considering it is not what I ordered.

[thorr]

I also have that one. It works "fine" but it doesn't have good ratings. It requires the special hdmi_limited=2 mode in the ini file because the colors are wacky with it otherwise. At this point, that might be the best affordable one known to work without major sync issues, but the colors aren't as good as they could be.

I think the main issue and testing done by OP is about brightness levels and doesn't particularly concern itself with colour (though I might be wrong).

This can be indeed a big problem with some of the DACs ranked low in his paper. I must admit, I was initially skeptical about that (as you can see in my posts on the first page) but that's becasue I was away from my main hardware and also had memories of things looking very good. But, after I have done some testing myself recently I think I owe OP an apology - in some cases the difference is really, really big. This is mostly about blacks being crushed, examples of which can be seem in the OPs pictures. And it can be hard or sometimes maybe impossible to correct with TV controls.

So even if often a bad-chipped DAC might look "great" (it also depends on game/scene) there will be moments when it will look terrible. Of course it can be difficult to figure out without reference pictures and/or OG hardware, but it is certainly a thing.

I am a perfectionist when it comes to getting the colors right and dialing in the rest of the settings in the service menu. With the proper tools (and a good working source, in this case a good HDMI to VGA converter), it is possible to calibrate the colors, brightness, etc. correctly. It becomes very obvious with trained eyes when things are not right. With lesser trained eyes, it is easy enough to see in the sense that everything just feels "off". I have the Avia home theater calibration DVD and it comes with blue, green and red filters that you look through. These are essential to getting the color right. You can also use a colorimeter of course, but I have never felt the need to, and I don't even know how to use one if I had one, other than the Spyder I had that works automatically with Windows software. I have some of the Avia test patterns as MiSTer wallpapers and use them along with the SNES utility which is an excellent tool. In the case of these older Moread DAC's the chip inside wrongly expects a 16-255 signal which is completely out of the norm, but at least there is a MiSTer ini setting for it. Any other device that uses the Moread would look wrong because it would either send 16-235 or 0-255. If the source (MiSTer) was sending 16-235 to the older Moread, The whites would be gray and dull looking and the whole picture in general would lack vividness. If it sent 0-255, it would clip the blacks. (If I am thinking correctly). No amount of adjusting the TV controls can recover the lost picture information. To see if you have the problem use test patterns or play material with lots of darks and bright areas and see if information is lost.

[darknezz19]

Received that dac from aliexpress. Video is pretty clean, takes a while to sync on resolution changes though. The audio has some noise to it when turned up. Not impressed but for $2 am not shocked.

Has anyone found a hdmi audio extractor that has virtually 0 noise? Have a feeling need to go HDMI to spdif to amp/dac for better noise reduction.

[thorr]

Received that dac from aliexpress. Video is pretty clean, takes a while to sync on resolution changes though. The audio has some noise to it when turned up. Not impressed but for $2 am not shocked.

Has anyone found a hdmi audio extractor that has virtually 0 noise? Have a feeling need to go HDMI to spdif to amp/dac for better noise reduction.

Yay! I can't wait to get mine now, lol. Sounds like the Icy Box but probably not as nice. I will have to check out the new Moread one. Does that one sync fast?

I use this HDMI audio extractor and it works perfect: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BIQER0E

[darknezz19]

The new Moread syncs pretty fast. I have 3 dacs now it it syncs the fastest by far.

Can you do a test for me. Are you running the rca analog from that to a tv or an amp? Turn the volume all the way up on a pause screen with no audio, like Castlevania Bloodlines. Now listen to what kind of static noise there is. Now unplug the RCA input from the audio extractor. See what the difference is and let me know please.

[thorr]

The new Moread syncs pretty fast. I have 3 dacs now it it syncs the fastest by far.

Can you do a test for me. Are you running the rca analog from that to a tv or an amp? Turn the volume all the way up on a pause screen with no audio, like Castlevania Bloodlines. Now listen to what kind of static noise there is. Now unplug the RCA input from the audio extractor. See what the difference is and let me know please.

Thanks. Sounds like the Moread is a winner then. I will order one and see what I think after I get my Aliexpress one which is almost here.

The HDMI audio extractor is running to a TV. I used Balloon Fight on NES which runs with now sound until you start the game. If I turn my TV all the way up (60) which is way louder than normal volume (12), there is a tiny bit more buzz but unplugging the RCA cable from the HDMI device made no difference. Unplugging the power of the adapter so the TV had no signal at all (video or audio) did make a bit of a difference but that could be coming from anywhere in my chain or native to the TV when it doesn't have a signal. Touching the RCA detached cable made the buzz louder of course. In any case, I am very happy with the quality of the audio extractor.

[thorr]

Just an update. I ordered the 2-pack of the Moread one and I am pleased with it. I compared it with my Antonio Villena 24-bit analog I/O board and it looks very similar. The darkest areas are slightly different from each other but it is only noticeable with a test pattern and is not far off at all (I wouldn't bother changing any picture adjustments). The signal is clean and it syncs pretty quickly. As of now, I think the Moread 2024 edition is the one to get for Direct Video. Just make sure it has the CS5210 chipset inside of it. I tried it with hdmi_limited set to 0 and 1 and didn't notice any big difference, so it seems to handle both settings well which is good too.

[paulbnl]

I compared it with my Antonio Villena 24-bit analog I/O board and it looks very similar.

Do you have a link to the 24bit cores? I can't seem to find the cores that are modified to support 24bit analog video on his board.

[thorr]

Do you have a link to the 24bit cores? I can't seem to find the cores that are modified to support 24bit analog video on his board.

Here is the link: https://github.com/MiSTer-Enhanced These are compatible with his board according to him, and there is no need to change the DIP switches.

[SirBeers]

I just got a Moread today and the green channel is very faint - like SO low. Is that what it looks like if you got the bad chip?

[dickhardpill]

I just got a Moread today and the green channel is very faint - like SO low. Is that what it looks like if you got the bad chip?

can you push the shell back and look at the IC inside of it? What is the PN? I have a moread with an AG6200 and it needs hdmi limited.

[SirBeers]

The part# is x002hscly7
the chip says ASL cs5210 UA01556 2308

[Alf]

I've never been more confused.
So do you guys think the upcoming IO boards will have good DACs? Maybe I should just wait and buy one of them, I don't know anymore...

[Atohmdiy]

I've never been more confused.
So do you guys think the upcoming IO boards will have good DACs? Maybe I should just wait and buy one of them, I don't know anymore...

The thing is, as long as we will rely on cheap chinese garbage, the situation will stay like today. We need someone in the retro community to build a reliable dac.

Even hdfury should be avoid. There is this ringing artifact and i also have issues with sound : not mister related, but windows do not pick it as a sound device so no sound in windows. In my linux desktop the sound become unstable and crappy and it cause unstability, which result of short desync of my TV. In mister it's fine but still.

The only good option right now seems to wait for the reflex prism but now i thing we'll wait forever.

[greenegg]

I've never been more confused.
So do you guys think the upcoming IO boards will have good DACs? Maybe I should just wait and buy one of them, I don't know anymore...

I'm with you man. I just wanted to know which DAC to buy but it seems like no matter which route I take I'm rolling the dice. I'll give the moread and aliexpress ones a go and just pray I guess.

[LamerDeluxe]

I've never been more confused.
So do you guys think the upcoming IO boards will have good DACs? Maybe I should just wait and buy one of them, I don't know anymore...

Wait for the new official version nine IO boards to be available from reputable sellers like Ultimate MiSTer, MisterFPGA.co.uk, MiSTer Addons etc. They will have 24-bit color output on their VGA connector and good quality analog audio. I will be upgrading my IO board.

[Alf]

Wait for the new official version nine IO boards to be available from reputable sellers like Ultimate MiSTer, MisterFPGA.co.uk, MiSTer Addons etc. They will have 24-bit color output on their VGA connector and good quality analog audio. I will be upgrading my IO board.

But that one won't have USB ports, a power button and most importantly an option to connect with a composite cable

[greenegg]

I'm assuming the new IO board is compatible with the existing Y/C adapters, no? Built in composite/s-video out would be cool but feels a bit much to ask for. Has anyone tested the DAC quality on the new board yet? https://www.legacypixels.com/mister/index.html