ao486 Config for a Plain Old CRT TV

[HerrBerzerk]

In the late 90s/early 2000s I had a graphic card with additional TV_Out (FBAS) and used that now and then.

[akeley]

Sorg definitely has a point. I was quite alive during the CGA/EGA/VGA/SVGA timeframe and spent part of that time in professional IT supporting PC's at businesses. None of these options ever had regular consumer TV's as mainstream options for a display. Nobody I knew at the time even considered it, except one case: schools that would wheel around TV/VCR/PC combinations on carts between classrooms. And those would plug in separate hardware dongles that would translate the VGA signal out into something the PAL TV could manage. It would look bad for productivity applications, most of the time, but it was awesome to play Doom on.

No, he doesn't have a point. It's as wrong as saying we shouldn't use gamepads because "some computer games are made for keyboard".

So, I guess if we follow this silly logic, then the HDMI and other QoL improvements should also be considered redundant, because none of the micros or consoles I remember were made for HDMI enabled displays, or whatever.

[Bas]

It's not silly logic. A PC with a bog-standard VGA output does not work with a consumer TV. Trying to wring it into that corner is going to bring a boatload of issues. Sure you can probably do it, but don't be surprised at all if some of your edge cases simply don't work. There are limits to what can be bent to one's will without breaking.

[akeley]

It's not silly logic. A PC with a bog-standard VGA output does not work with a consumer TV. Trying to wring it into that corner is going to bring a boatload of issues. Sure you can probably do it, but don't be surprised at all if some of your edge cases simply don't work. There are limits to what can be bent to one's will without breaking.

The logic of saying that we shouldn't do something now because it hasn't been done in the past is silly - to put it mildly (besides the fact that it's not even true, what with CGA and various TV out cards). It is also irrelevant because we're not writing a history book here.

Secondly, it has already been done. Check the gallery I linked to, plus the whole thread, which is a proof that many people were quite happy with it and found it useful, regardless of the fact that some software might not work.

[Bas]

I didn't say you shouldn't try to do it or even do it. Just don't expect people like Sorg to bend over backwards in order to make this kind of thing an option.

[akeley]

And I didn't say that I "expect people like Sorg to bend over backwards in order to make this kind of thing an option". But I did expect somebody bringing up this (yet another) deflection. Next up: "learn to code and do it yourself".
These kinda exchanges appear here regularly, and I'm never quite sure what people are trying to achieve by posting negative comments regarding topics they have no interest in, aside from creating unnecessary noise.

What I can understand is devs saying that something is technically impossible to do, they are not interested, don't have time, it's low on their priority list, etc - these are all valid arguments. But saying that "ao486 is not for TV" is silly and deserves poking fun at.

Funnily enough, one of the first similar cases I've seen around here was regarding composite itself, and here's what Sorgelig had to say about it in 2020

Composite output is simply not a part of MiSTer, so you need to add it if you are fan of blurry videos.

And there were plenty of people dismissing this concept it as well. And here we are 4 years later, with MikeS1's Y/C module being rather popular (and to his credit Sorgelig sometimes does reverse his initially hardline stances).

So, yet again, one just has to shrug, move on, and hope one day some wiz will appear and maybe find a solution to this problem.

[_javi_]

In the late 90s/early 2000s I had a graphic card with additional TV_Out (FBAS) and used that now and then.

I still miss my ATI 3D XPRESSION+ PC2TV hooked up to the Sony Kv29 VTR15 (thru S-video). Those were the days.. (1996??)

https://www.hzdr.de/FWC/MITARB/schmei/L ... dware/VGA/

Don't tell me the PC wasnt meant to be played on TV..

[buttersoft]

Just chiming in to add that i'd love to be getting 480i out of ao486, would save me needing two CRT's for MiSTer... I'm going to look into a GBSC for the time being, but wish i didn't have to.

I, too, understand the edge case of an edge case scenario, but the whole point of the MiSTer is to support retro fetishes, no? And the community is thriving (I'd also welcome scaler support for 1080i while we're at it!)

[thorr]

Just chiming in to add that i'd love to be getting 480i out of ao486, would save me needing two CRT's for MiSTer... I'm going to look into a GBSC for the time being, but wish i didn't have to.

I, too, understand the edge case of an edge case scenario, but the whole point of the MiSTer is to support retro fetishes, no? And the community is thriving (I'd also welcome scaler support for 1080i while we're at it!)

Hadn't heard of GBSC but I looked it up and I think it upscales rather than downscales (it is backwards of what you are looking for). You can use an HDMI to SVideo or 480i Component converter, but I prefer to just use the custom pixel perfect progressive modes that I worked on that work for most games (320x200 or mode x games).

[buttersoft]

The GBSC can downscale too, though it might be limited. I think it can scale 480p to 240p, but perhaps not to 480i

I've been back through the thread,and 320x200 gives good options, but which mode did you settle on for 240 line DOS games? Anything with 240 lines vertically? And then just scale it right, and tweak the porches for sizing? Also, @thorr, any chance you could share your latest mister.ini file for ao486? That way i can cherry pick and adjust what you're using to suit my setup (looks like vmode didn't work in TDL properly, so nothing to set in TDL.ini or autoexec.bat?)

And it doesn't seem there is a great workaround for 640x480 games like Wing Commander, which is definitely something i was looking for. I'll have a play around with what's here though, and if i discover anything new i'll make sure to post.

[buttersoft]

Hadn't heard of GBSC but I looked it up and I think it upscales rather than downscales (it is backwards of what you are looking for). You can use an HDMI to SVideo or 480i Component converter, but I prefer to just use the custom pixel perfect progressive modes that I worked on that work for most games (320x200 or mode x games).

@thorr, any chance you could share your latest mister.ini file for ao486?

[thorr]

@thorr, any chance you could share your latest mister.ini file for ao486?

It really depends on what your TV will be able to sync to. I have had success with 70.1Hz modes on my Panasonic TV, but not on my Toshiba. See earlier posts in this thread for a ton of modelines to try.

Here is the one that works well on my Toshiba TV.
[ao486]
direct_video=0
vga_scaler=1
vsync_adjust=2
video_mode=1440,100,140,227,240,2,0,28,30892 ; Toshiba TV
refresh_min=60
refresh_max=60

[Koston]

saying that "ao486 is not for TV" is silly and deserves poking fun at.

Correct solution towards disagreeing with Sorgelig's position and code (which you're getting for free) is contributing yourself the changes you want to see.

I don't know about Sorgelig, but most people don't like it when they've invested thousands of man-hours contributing to a public domain project and get made fun of/insulted for their motivations - by someone who contributes nothing.

[akeley]

Next up: "learn to code and do it yourself".

Correct solution towards disagreeing with Sorgelig's position and code (which you're getting for free) is contributing yourself the changes you want to see.

That didn't take long.

Like I said, it's just more noise, but these virtue signalling posts do bump assorted threads up, thus giving them more exposure. And that's a good thing.

[akeley]

@thorr, any chance you could share your latest mister.ini file for ao486?

More examples: https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Wiki_Mi ... uide#ao486

[Koston]

Next up: "learn to code and do it yourself".

Correct solution towards disagreeing with Sorgelig's position and code (which you're getting for free) is contributing yourself the changes you want to see.

Contributing doesn't necessarily mean learning to code and doing everything yourself. Since you want to squeeze all DOS content into 15kHz RGBS, you could start by mapping out what "all DOS content" actually entails, while studying how analog video signals work; VGA and 15kHz RGBS specifically. Doing one specific video conversion is one thing, but DOS is far from one specific video format. And since you want this specifically done on the MiSTer, gaining a deeper understanding of the hardware/software stack would help keeping arguments grounded in technology.

Or, if you're not going to do any of those things, you could at least have the sense and decency to be polite.

[thorr]

Both sides are making plausible arguments. Part of the MiSTer mentality (rightfully) is that we are trying to reproduce the past authentically. I get it. By all means do that, for sure. However also the MiSTer can do and does do many things not possible back in the day too such as provide component output, turbo cores, etc. My personal view is that if something can be done that people want, then do it, rather than say "It wasn't that way back in the day, so you can't have it now." And there is no problem at all for wanting something and asking for it. There is also the right of the developers to not do it because they don't want to put time into it, which is probably the case most of the time for the features we want but don't get. This can be frustrating for people who want the feature, especially if it is a feature that most people think should be there because the original hardware could do it, and the MiSTer could do it if somebody coded it. Anyway, in summary, it's ok to ask for things, and everyone should remain polite, and from my point of view, everyone in this thread has remained relatively polite.

Also, I am a bit confused by what is being asked for here. I thought it was for YC support for ao486, but Koston's last post is confusing me. If component can do it, then YC support should work too with the exact same limitations as component.

[buttersoft]

Or, if you're not going to do any of those things, you could at least have the sense and decency to be polite.

The politeness point is well made. I'm not sure akeley was trying to be rude so much as that tone can be lost when typing on forums. If you think of his statement with a smiley on the end it's more gentle.

I am a little confused by your statements about DOS specifically though. ao486 is the core under discussion, but interlaced modes would apply much more generally than that. They may still require more technical understanding that i have, i'll grant. But i'd love to be able to use a 1080i mode as well.

More examples: https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Wiki_Mi ... uide#ao486

Appreciated!

It really depends on what your TV will be able to sync to. I have had success with 70.1Hz modes on my Panasonic TV, but not on my Toshiba. See earlier posts in this thread for a ton of modelines to try.

Appreciated!

[akeley]

Contributing doesn't necessarily mean learning to code and doing everything yourself. Since you want to squeeze all DOS content into 15kHz RGBS, you could start by mapping out what "all DOS content" actually entails, while studying how analog video signals work; VGA and 15kHz RGBS specifically. Doing one specific video conversion is one thing, but DOS is far from one specific video format. And since you want this specifically done on the MiSTer, gaining a deeper understanding of the hardware/software stack would help keeping arguments grounded in technology.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I "want to squeeze all DOS content into RGBS". My initial post was a simple joke showing that most of the DOS content works beautifully in 15kHz and hence statements such as "ao486 is not for TV" are simply not true, neither technically nor from the point of view of many people who enjoy this hack.

Furthermore - again! - this has already been done in RGB. Talking about it as if we demand something that doesn't exist is quite silly, and a further proof that posters like you are not really reading and/or understanding what's going on here and are just replying as a knee jerk reaction.

The issue now is whether it can or can not be done in CV. But this is not something I was ever questioning or joking about. Again, like I said earlier: "What I can understand is devs saying that something is technically impossible to do, they are not interested, don't have time, it's low on their priority list, etc - these are all valid arguments."

The politeness point is well made. I'm not sure akeley was trying to be rude so much as that tone can be lost when typing on forums. If you think of his statement with a smiley on the end it's more gentle.

Lest we forget, here's my initial post, which kicked it all off.

All-in-all ao486 is not for TV" - classic Sorg

I don't begrudge anybody thinking this classifies as "rude", but I obviously don't. It was just a little joke from somebody who has been around a while and knows the peculiarities of this project's leader (the phrase "getting Sorged" is there for a reason, and not something I came up with).

That doesn't mean disrespect - to the contrary. Apart from the obvious kudos for making this whole thing happen, Sorgelig has the ability to change his mind and make changes he previosly opposed, and this is something I value greatly.

At the same time, I reserve the right to classify people who think that they should go up in arms about such a joke, and then go on to post many disingenious arguments to prop their position, as having cultist attitude. This is not the first time it has happened, it's something I've encountered very early after joining this project (see the thread I linked to earlier) and then on numerous occasions later. Two worst things about it is that you cannot criticize The Great Leader (or any core dev, by extension), even if it's perfectly valid and constructive, and two, it's quite often done in opposition to things these people have no interest in themselves (but will happily advocate for whatever niche change they are interested in elsewhere).

So, if my subsequent replies to them classify as "rude", then it's not intentional but also not something I apologise for. I don't think I need to be polite to people who are not posting in good faith to start with and also don't even bother with reading and understanding what has been said before. That's pretty rude, in my book at least, and preaching the need for "politeness" fairly hypocritical (I don't mean you, of course, I know your work and positive attitude from your own forum and other places .

It all can be quite exasperating, and to add insult to injury you then get to read about how "you contribute nothing" too. I really, really hate to beat my own drum, but to hear that after you spent countless hours writing the CRT wiki, trying to help people on this forum with CRT and other prorblems, and testing/pushing for changes that happened in this very thread (that aside from my work on other projects) can get a rise even out of somebody normally as immune to this kind of internet BS as I am.

Still, it feels pretty stupid to get drawn into yet another pointless exchange, so it's my last post on the subject.

Again, just hoping that after the noise dies down, some good will eventually come out of it. That's what happened many times before in this project and what keeps me involved with it as well.

[Koston]

It all can be quite exasperating, and to add insult to injury you then get to read about how "you contribute nothing" too. I really, really hate to beat my own drum, but to hear that after you spent countless hours writing the CRT wiki, trying to help people on this forum with CRT and other prorblems, and testing/pushing for changes that happened in this very thread (that aside from my work on other projects) can get a rise even out of somebody normally as immune to this kind of internet BS as I am.

I apologise for my incorrect and shameful assumption about contributing, and more generally for having, as you say, a knee-jerk reaction instead of properly investigating the subject matter. Lately I've noticed a rising trend on the forum with "internet BS", and like a complete poopgoblin I've now contributed to it, despite intending the opposite.

[buttersoft]

Ok, so i've given that modeline above a go, and will tweak the porches and play around. EGA games look great, and there are some of those i'm looking (re)play. Cheers. But, as feared, VGA games don't look great. I suspect there's nothing to be done unless we can get interlaced modes implemented. I'm certainly prepared to beg

I might try a cheap-ish HDMI-to-Y/C converter. Unless i can save enough an Extron VSC-500, which i doubt, as there are other things to do with the money :/

[thorr]

Ok, so i've given that modeline above a go, and will tweak the porches and play around. EGA games look great, and there are some of those i'm looking (re)play. Cheers. But, as feared, VGA games don't look great. I suspect there's nothing to be done unless we can get interlaced modes implemented. I'm certainly prepared to beg

I might try a cheap-ish HDMI-to-Y/C converter. Unless i can save enough an Extron VSC-500, which i doubt, as there are other things to do with the money :/

I have been down this road and tried a lot of stuff including an Extron. Here is the best device I found: https://www.getuscart.com/universal-pre ... R8V03COpOw

I didn't buy it from India, but that is the one. It will convert progressive signals to 480i with almost no lag (I didn't notice it or measure it). If I recall correctly, it expects 16:9 input so I had to make a custom resolution so it would fit proportionally on the CRT TV. I paid $78 for it in 2021.

This one works decently, but is not great like the one above: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00V2ULFAQ

And yes, I have nearly begged for 480i scaler support in the MiSTer many times already too. That would be by far the best option because there is almost no lag and it is "free". The first option above is the next best, but it is being scaled twice (first by the MiSTer then by the device).

[buttersoft]

Yeah, i've seen that Universal converter before. But i can't seem to find it in stock anywhere! I'll have a look at that link, thanks.

I might just go something super cheap for 480i S-video conversion to begin with, not quite sure yet.

[thorr]

Also, that modeline is great for most DOS games such as Doom, Monkey Island, etc. (320x200 256 colors). These are better than EGA. Games like Sim City 2000 require higher resolutions.

[buttersoft]

Ok, i'm retarded, found the options i wanted.

I still find it weird that with the modes in this list i cannot get c-sync to output! I would understand if it was just in the a0486 core, but it's the menus as well.maybe it's my config somewhere, my 15kHz for consoles still works fine delivering c-sync.

[Tails975]

Hey y'all,

I'm very new to the world of MiSTer. I have a Sony KV-32FV310 which was RGB modded with a DE15 port, most of the cores I've tried work beautifully. I'm connected by using HDMI -> UGreen HDMI to VGA adapter -> VGA -> TV. I'm pretty sure I've tried all of the modelines on this thread as well as others, but so far no luck getting a stable picture with the ao486 core. At one point I had a couple modelines that had a clear image, just the picture had a slow vertical scroll, I just can't find which modeline that was where I could tweak it, so I've started to keep each modeline I try. I'm not sure what else to try or tweak at this point, if anyone has advice for which settings to tweak around with or other modelines to try, or if there's something in my hardware path that needs changed, would be super appreciated

Thanks,
Tails975

EDIT: I spent a fair amount of time after this initial post trying more configurations, I'm at a point again where a clear image does show, but it is still vertical scrolling. The best config so far is the following:

Code: Select all

[ao486]
direct_video=0
vga_scaler=1
vscale_mode=1
vscale_border=1
video_mode=640,6,56,66,224,14,8,18,12160

The picture is a bit too wide on both sides, I figure that can get tweaked later, the vertical scroll is about 2.5 seconds per cycle. I want to see if I can tweak the frequency, perhaps the other parameters to achieve a stable picture as different video_mode settings had an effect on scroll speed. At the very least the rest of the settings are probably correct how they are unless any of y'all think they're worth tweaking

EDIT 2: I've just been trying different video_mode configs without changing the rest, the best so far has been:

video_mode=1280,170,140,244,240,2,0,22,29020

Clear image, 3 second vertical scroll, able to adjust between narrow and wide easily, could be a slight bit more to the right but is all contained on screen. I'll see if I can slow the scroll any further, if not I'll keep trying other video_mode configs

[FoxbatStargazer]

I don't see vsync_adjust. If you've got the core set to variable refresh then vsync_adjust=1 or 2 you will get 70hz in DOS which your TV probably won't handle, or at least not with normal modelines. Try vsync_adjust=0 to force the refresh provided in your modeline for now.

[Tails975]

I don't see vsync_adjust. If you've got the core set to variable refresh then vsync_adjust=1 or 2 you will get 70hz in DOS which your TV probably won't handle, or at least not with normal modelines. Try vsync_adjust=0 to force the refresh provided in your modeline for now.

I set vsync_adjust=0, it didn't seem to make any difference, but I'll leave it in the config just in case. I also tried vsync_adjust=1 and =2 to be safe, but those just garbled the picture. Thanks for the reply! I tweaked the porch values at least so the picture is centered, just need to somehow eliminate the scroll. I should also mention that the scroll seems unphased on whether the refresh rate in the core settings is set to variable or 60hz, for now I have it set to 60hz since that more closely matches the target refresh rate of the TV

Current modeline:

Code: Select all

[ao486]
direct_video=0
vga_scaler=1
vscale_mode=1
vscale_border=1
vsync_adjust=0
video_mode=1280,142,140,272,240,2,0,22,29050

[akeley]

Your problem sounds like this old sync issue: https://www.misterfpga.org/viewtopic.php?p=55222#p55222

So basically you will need to use an extra adapter if you want to use Direct Video and modelines.

This problem doesn't exist when using I/O board, so maybe it's worth considering getting one.