Apple II Core

[thorr]

You will find that palette here, under "Apple_IIe_NTSC.a2p":
https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Apple-I ... ic/AppleII

I finally got some free time to start experimenting with this. I hooked up my video switchbox so I can go back and forth between the MiSTer composite output and the Apple IIc composite output. Here is what I found so far:

• The above Apple_IIe_NTSC.a2p palette file has really strange colors, so there seems to be something wrong with it. Edit: thinking about it, maybe it was because I didn't download it properly. Downloading off github is not straightforward, and I always forget to check for that. I will try again soon.
• The vibrancy of the core using the composite adapter is very subdued/dull compared to my real Apple IIc. It's also much less sharp when looking at the text in text mode. It's almost like it needs more voltage. I am not sure if this can be adjusted or not.
• I haven't tried adjusting the palette colors yet. However, I can tell you that they don't match. The vibrancy is an issue, but perhaps I can adjust for this when adjusting the colors. Despite the vibrancy issue, the colors are different. I am looking forward to having more time to try adjusting these, hopefully with a valid Apple_IIe_NTSC.a2p file eventually.
• When the core first boots, for less than one second, I can see that the Apple IIe logo is nice and bright and sharp. Then it kicks into dull and blurry mode. It does not matter if I select B&W or any other mode. The black and white MiSTer main menu before launching a core is nice and sharp and vibrant like the Apple IIe logo for the first moment the core is launched. This is the same with other cores as well, and depending on the video mode used it looks better or worse. I think it is going from Black and White to color and that is causing it to dim when it switches. It would be cool if in TEXT mode, it would use the non-color composite mode like the MiSTer menu does. The text would look much better.
• I tried adjusting the video_gain_offset and contrast, etc. in the MiSTer.ini but they had no effect.
• I played with the sound as well, and as others have noted, the core's overall volume is very low and you have to turn the volume way up to get normal levels (like double of what it should be). If you can double the audio output level, that would be great.

I am wondering if I have a setting wrong somewhere since B&W mode looks mostly B&W instead of color on my composite monitor.

I am also wondering if the newer Analog I/O board with 24-bit causes the composite adapter to be dimmer. I am using the Antonio Villena composite adapter. Perhaps there needs to be a new version that works with the new I/O board.

Thanks in advance for any feedback or fixes!

[breiztiger]

hi

i have just test apple ii core with card cat 1.6 (https://henrylowe.net/card-cat/)

20240710_142526-screen.png (336.68 KiB) Viewed 4968 times

Slot 1 - clock card (PRODOS compatible)
and
Slot 5 - Saturn 128kb RAM expansion (total of 256kb)

aren't well identify ...

is there is mistake in signature ?

[ExCyber]

The clock card and HDD ROMs don't appear to have actual signatures; those are just the bytes of code that happen to be at those addresses. The core's HDD card is not a BOOTI, but they might have a very similar code sequence in this range since there are some compatibility constraints on the layout of that area of a storage controller ROM.

The RAM card in the core doesn't have a ROM. Pictures of the original Saturn Systems cards have a chip that looks like it might be a ROM, but if so it's apparently not essential; at least some clones omit it, and I don't see code to load it in either MAME or AppleWin.

[nrnoble]

A general question: How far as the Apple II series of cores come alone since this thread was first started? I've read the first couple of pages of the thread that was started in 2020.

I am interested in buying a mister. The Apple II and Mac are what I most interested in as far as computers. #1 interest would be classic arcade games from 70s - 80s.

I bought a dedicated FPGA for my Atari Tempest arcade cabinet because the PCB board failed. FPGA works flawlessly.

[Newsdee]

A general question: How far as the Apple II series of cores come alone since this thread was first started? I've read the first couple of pages of the thread that was started in 2020

The Apple IIe core has the following great changes,
mostly thanks to Alanswx, Gyurco, Steven Wilson, and Sorgelig:

• ProDOS HDD support
  

• Support for floppy disk write

• Write protect enable/disable

• Super Serial Card support

• Added clock support

• Paddle support

• Option to load custom ROM video (for non-english languages)

• Color palettes for more accurate colors (or choose your own)

• Option for mixed mode text color artifacts

• New keys supported: Open apple, Close Apple, Delete, Reset (F2)

• Shortcut to toggle video modes (F9)

• Video hardware scaling with correct aspect ratio

• Various other fixes in timings, upgrade T65 CPU and MiSTer framework to latest

There is no Apple IIgs core yet.

The Mac Plus core had less changes but mostly got more stability, better disk support, a new SE mode, and a speedup (16Mhz).

There is also the option to run a color Macinstosh as Shapeshifter under the Minimig (Amiga) core, this works really well and can run later Mac games at 1080p resolution.

For the Apple IIe the main missing feature is mouse support, but not many games use it, and support for double mockingboard (which is even rarer, I think only Ultima IV uses it). The rest of the missing features only benefit "productivity" apps (printer etc) which is not so much the focus of a device such as MiSTer.

[thorr]

Thanks everyone! I really hope that Dual Mockingboard support gets added (should be really easy since it already supports one, and another one just needs to be added to a different slot. I also really hope that mouse support gets added for Dazzle Draw and Animate, and games that I want to (re)write that use the mouse. I have a mouse with my Apple IIc, but I would prefer to use the MiSTer in these occasions with a better mouse. Printer support should be easy too, since it is just another serial port I think. I have an Image Writer II printer, but I haven't hooked it up to my IIc. It would be fun to print a banner that says Happy Birthday.

I keep looking at used IIgs's and keep not buying one hoping to see a core some day. I have a Mac LC III, so that is tiding me over until color support is added to a Mac core.

Also,I keep asking but nobody ever answers for some reason. I am wondering if the new 24-bit I/O board works with the right colors with the composite adapter. I have my doubts, but nobody will answer the question. I would like to hook this up to my IIc monitor and have it look like my IIc does.

[HerrBerzerk]

. #1 interest would be classic arcade games from 70s - 80s.

Unfortunately this is the time period where most games are buggy, are not working 100% and have wrong or no sound at all, so I can not recommend to buy a MiSter especially for these classic arcade games

[Newsdee]

I keep looking at used IIgs's and keep not buying one hoping to see a core some day. I have a Mac LC III, so that is tiding me over until color support is added to a Mac core.

Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg9epXn9CQs

[thorr]

Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg9epXn9CQs

That is pretty slick. I was aware of that and how it natively uses the Amiga CPU, but so far I have not even ever launched the Amiga core or ever owned one, so I would have the road block of the first time user learning curve getting it all set up. Not that it would be hard, but just the time I don't want to put into it so far. It's nice to see that the CPU performance is better than the Mac LC III I have, so someday I could use the MiSTer as a faster version of what I have (hopefully with a native core).

Edit: I can see why it might not be a priority to make a native core with how well that works. It got me to thinking about graphics modes, so I looked up what the Amiga supports. It looks like they are all 15Khz modes. Does the Minimig core support interlaced modes? That would be an advantage over a real Mac core because it would natively work on TV's with Minimig, although it would not look as nice as native Mac progressive modes would on a monitor. I would love to play "Airborne!" on my TV and the black and white core doesn't support interlaced modes so it is missing horizontal lines when it is scaled to the TV.

Edit 2: A quick search reveals that it seems to support interlaced modes. Now I have a driving reason to try Minimig sooner than planned.

Edit 3: Another look at the Amiga graphics modes shows progressive modes are also available. I wonder if Shapeshifter can work in interlaced modes.

[thorr]

Just came across this amazing gem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNOqu4vcDto

[akeley]

Regardless of the Shapeshifter method, I do hope one day somebody will try to tackle Apple IIgs anyway. There's nothing like native core after all.

[akator]

^ Agreed. Native cores for IIGS and color Macintosh would be very welcome.

[rhester72]

Edit 3: Another look at the Amiga graphics modes shows progressive modes are also available. I wonder if Shapeshifter can work in interlaced modes.

It can, as it uses Amiga screen modes, though I'm not sure why you'd want to...Macs were 100% progressive.

Using Picasso96/RTG with 640x480x8 is definitely the sweet spot.

I too had forgotten all about Shapeshifter, which is ironic given how much I tried (and failed) to get Basilisk II to run After Dark (stably) or Myst (at all). Both work exactly like original hardware on Shapeshifter, which I'm back to being ALL OVER after the revelation watching the YT video several posts ago. Remarkable!

[rhester72]

^ Agreed. Native cores for IIGS and color Macintosh would be very welcome.

As for the latter...I'm not so sure. There's only two color Macs that were packing 68020s and both were FAR poorer in terms of capabilities than Shapeshifter on Minimig. The ability to share files between the Amiga and Mac world is HUGELY beneficial for content downloaded from the Internet (thanks, StuffIt and BinHex!), which I suppose could be integrated into a native Mac core but would be unlikely to be. The funky RAM handling of the '020 Macs doesn't help, and the absence of Amiga RTG screen modes allowing for higher-than-real-world resolutions would be missed.

Outside of sound hardware-banging software, you'd be EXTREMELY hard-pressed to find an area where performance and compatibility of Shapeshifter could be matched or exceeded by a dedicated core.

[akator]

It is truly impressive that Shapeshifter works so well in the Amiga core.

However, for users who want a Macintosh experience, using the Amiga core to emulate a Mac means you are still using an Amiga. That's not a Mac experience, it's an Amiga experience.

The funky RAM handling of the '020 Macs doesn't help, and the absence of Amiga RTG screen modes allowing for higher-than-real-world resolutions would be missed.

The most significant 68020 was the Macintosh II. That was capable of far more output resolutions depending on the video card used. You are correct that the LC was far more limited... but why would a color Mac core be limited to LC specs, which were crazily limited even when that system was originally released?

Outside of sound hardware-banging software, you'd be EXTREMELY hard-pressed to find an area where performance and compatibility of Shapeshifter could be matched or exceeded by a dedicated core.

I don't follow. I'm not being argumentative here, just trying to understand the basis of what you wrote. Isn't MiSTer about FPGA-based reproduction of classic systems? Why would a dedicated color Mac core be more limited than a software emulated Mac running in the Amiga core? If someone wanted a software emulated Mac, why not do that using any of several software emulation options on Windows, macOS, or Linux?

[thorr]

It can, as it uses Amiga screen modes, though I'm not sure why you'd want to...Macs were 100% progressive.

Cool! The reason is as previously stated - because I want to play games on my (32") TV such as Airborne, because, it's cool that this could be done! For normal Mac stuff, I would much prefer to use my SVGA CRT.

It is truly impressive that Shapeshifter works so well in the Amiga core.

I don't follow. I'm not being argumentative here, just trying to understand the basis of what you wrote. Isn't MiSTer about FPGA-based reproduction of classic systems? Why would a dedicated color Mac core be more limited than a software emulated Mac running in the Amiga core? If someone wanted a software emulated Mac, why not do that using any of several software emulation options on Windows, macOS, or Linux?

The thing is that with Shapeshifter, it uses the CPU in the Amiga directly, since it is the same CPU as the Mac uses. That is why it runs so well. So, when using Shapeshifter, it's almost like having a real Mac core in FPGA, except as you mentioned for having to run an Amiga first. I totally agree though that the best option would be to also have a real Mac core. Running an emulator on Windows, etc. is totally different because they don't have the real CPU.

[akeley]

Running an emulator on Windows, etc. is totally different because they don't have the real CPU.

Sorry, but for me it's pretty much the same, which is why I agree 100% with what Akator wrote The CPU here is also not real, it's an FPGA implementation, and cool as it might be, running it via Amiga core is just another form of emulation*. Something I'm only a few clicks away on my desktop.

A big part of MiSTer magic is the feeling that I'm actually using the real hardware, and I just don't get it in this case, similar to why I'm not using ZX Spectrum Next to run OG Spectrum software, even though it might offer some QoL improvements. So, here's hoping that one day some Mac fan with mad Verilog skillz will appear and tackle this. It's probably unlikely, but stranger things have happened.

(*I know this is one of those impossible "how many angels on a pinhead" arguments, so probably best left at the "agree to disagree" stage)

[Newsdee]

it's almost like having a real Mac core in FPGA, except as you mentioned for having to run an Amiga first.

I had some help with the setup (used a pre-existing image) and it basically boots directly into the emulated Mac. It feels exactly like using an LC or later color Mac.

But the trouble I have with it is how to get files inside and out the emulated Mac... as that needs to go through the Amiga layer.
So it's fine for prepackaged setups, but not as a replacement of a real machine and work with your own files.

[Newsdee]

Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg9epXn9CQs

It works on the core!

[rhester72]

The most significant 68020 was the Macintosh II. That was capable of far more output resolutions depending on the video card used. You are correct that the LC was far more limited... but why would a color Mac core be limited to LC specs, which were crazily limited even when that system was originally released?

Easy...because MiSTer hasn't gotten a 68030 core with MMU (much less FPU) after years now, and doesn't seem likely to, and that limits you to exactly two models (and both were absolutely limited to 640x480x8, period), along with the associated RAM constraints.

You can't have it both ways...if you want a true-to-life core/experience, you're limited to what was actually available (and can be constructed via FPGA). If you don't care about that, and you want to allow any resolution and color depth, any RAM configuration, convenient storage options (read: not SCSI), the ability to get Internet content (sit/hqx) onto the emulated drive without using virtual floppies (and how would you get them there in the first place?), etc., etc...then it's far from a real Mac and ironically FAR closer to what you would get with, you guessed it, Shapeshifter. If you insist on a "true-to-life" experience, you're at minimum going to need an external physical floppy drive and some means of content management outside of MiSTer itself, which is pointless and ridiculous IMHO.

Outside of sound hardware-banging software, you'd be EXTREMELY hard-pressed to find an area where performance and compatibility of Shapeshifter could be matched or exceeded by a dedicated core.

I don't follow. I'm not being argumentative here, just trying to understand the basis of what you wrote. Isn't MiSTer about FPGA-based reproduction of classic systems? Why would a dedicated color Mac core be more limited than a software emulated Mac running in the Amiga core? If someone wanted a software emulated Mac, why not do that using any of several software emulation options on Windows, macOS, or Linux?

The reasons I gave above. Shapeshifter has no such constraints, and is exactly why it was a faster Mac-than-Macs back when. In terms of real-world performance, the unconstrained '020 core is MUCH faster than a Mac II/LC ever thought about being.

I think you're mixing paradigms a bit with rose-colored nostalgia glasses. Try actually using Shapeshifter for a bit, then imagine that same experience without the benefit of that much speed, memory, storage, and quality-of-life conveniences like the ability to share content with the Amiga (or MiSTer) side. I don't think you want what you think you want, but I could be wrong.

[thorr]

There are good reasons to have both options. The good news is we already have the Amiga option. As for getting stuff to and from the Mac on a real Mac core, it should be not much different than ao486 essentially. Mac's can have ethernet cards, CDROM drives, hard drives and floppy drives. I have a BlueSCSI and that seems like it would be similar to loading things onto the MiSTer. Getting everything set up can be somewhat of a pain, but you only do it once and then you have it, similar to ao486. The easiest way is probably CDROM ISO files.

[akator]

Easy...because MiSTer hasn't gotten a 68030 core with MMU (much less FPU) after years now, and doesn't seem likely to, and that limits you to exactly two models (and both were absolutely limited to 640x480x8, period), along with the associated RAM constraints.

The Macintosh II could use NuBus video cards, some capable of resolutions higher than 640x480.

I think you're mixing paradigms a bit with rose-colored nostalgia glasses.

No.

Try actually using Shapeshifter for a bit, then imagine that same experience without the benefit of that much speed, memory, storage, and quality-of-life conveniences like the ability to share content with the Amiga (or MiSTer) side.

I don't have to imagine it. I still own some 68K and PowerPC Macs. I also use Mini vMac, Basilisk II, Sheepshaver, and MAME to emulate classic Macs.

What you see as "quality-of-life conveniences like the ability to share content with the Amiga" is not necessarily interpreted that way by other people. When I turn on a real 68K Mac, I do not have to use an Amiga. I don't even have to know how to use an Amiga.

There's definitely a need for a FPGA classic color Mac experience, one that is not forcibly tethered to the Amiga core.

I don't think you want what you think you want, but I could be wrong.

Alas, I don't think you know what I want or what I think I want and what you think I want is not at all what I think or want.

[rhester72]

I don't have to imagine it. I still own some 68K and PowerPC Macs. I also use Mini vMac, Basilisk II, Sheepshaver, and MAME to emulate classic Macs.

What you see as "quality-of-life conveniences like the ability to share content with the Amiga" is not necessarily interpreted that way by other people. When I turn on a real 68K Mac, I do not have to use an Amiga. I don't even have to know how to use an Amiga.

There's definitely a need for a FPGA classic color Mac experience, one that is not forcibly tethered to the Amiga core.

I think you are entirely missing the point. Imagine a Mac where you have no access whatsoever to a floppy drive, CD-ROM, or networking. That's what you're going to get from a FPGA experience. Now you're going to challenge me that's not true, that we'll magically find a way to get variable-speed drive support in a FPGA core and there will be enough logic units left over for a SCSI CD-ROM implementation and the memory limits aren't real and all that jazz, so I'm going to just step away and wish you the very best of luck on that core-that-doesn't-exist-for-a-reason as I continue to enjoy Shapeshifter.

[akator]

I think you are entirely missing the point. Imagine a Mac where you have no access whatsoever to a floppy drive, CD-ROM, or networking. That's what you're going to get from a FPGA experience. Now you're going to challenge me that's not true, that we'll magically find a way to get variable-speed drive support in a FPGA core and there will be enough logic units left over for a SCSI CD-ROM implementation and the memory limits aren't real and all that jazz, so I'm going to just step away and wish you the very best of luck on that core-that-doesn't-exist-for-a-reason as I continue to enjoy Shapeshifter.

Why are features that are possible in the Amiga core not possible in a Mac core?

I don't understand why variable speed drive support and SCSI CD-ROM implementation are obstacles. I don't use real floppies or CDs with my 68K Macs, I use floppy images and CD images on my real Mac hardware just as we're already doing with with other MiSTer cores.

It is also unclear to me what memory limitations you are referring to. 68020 memory limitations? The DE10-Nano memory limitations?

[Newsdee]

Why are features that are possible in the Amiga core not possible in a Mac core?

I'd say it's not about whether they are possible or not, but rather probably for it...

The Minimig core has a long history (open sourced in 2007) and started with its own dedicated hardware.
It is unlikely we will see that much dedication for a Mac core unless a very talented dev strikes a fancy for the platform.

And even though all those features are possible, they would only appear late in the life of the core.

I don't think there is an open-source HDL code for a 68040 CPU. But if Shapeshifter works well enough with the 68020 in Minimig (which I understand has limitations), it may work well enough to replicate an LC or LC III with overclocking as a standalone core.

I'd love to see it but I'm not holding my breath...

[akator]

Why are features that are possible in the Amiga core not possible in a Mac core?

I'd say it's not about whether they are possible or not, but rather probably for it...

The Minimig core has a long history (open sourced in 2007) and started with its own dedicated hardware.
It is unlikely we will see that much dedication for a Mac core unless a very talented dev strikes a fancy for the platform.

I totally get this. I have marveled at the amazing things accomplished by the Amiga community over many years. There doesn't appear to be the same interest from the classic Mac community for FPGA hardware recreation as we've seen for the Amiga and Atari ST.

[thorr]

Getting back to the colors of the Apple IIe core, I revisited this again tonight. See more here about BW mode: viewtopic.php?p=91062#p91062

I hooked my MiSTer back up to my Apple IIc monitor, and I ran the SNES utility program to adjust my monitor knobs the best I could. I then went back to the Apple II core, and I tried it with both my Toshiba TV and my IIc monitor, and also my Apple IIc with my monitor.

Here is what I observed (not taking photos at the moment, but just a general impression)

Apple IIc compared to MiSTer IIe on IIc monitor:

• The colors are much more vibrant from the IIc and look very saturated, and are a little on the dull side from the MiSTer, but still acceptable. Somewhere in the middle is probably where I would want it, but either are acceptable.
• There is a purple color on the IIc that looks gray on the MiSTer

MiSTer IIe on IIc Monitor vs MiSTer IIe on Toshiba TV using Composite:

• The MiSTer composite colors are much more vibrant on the Toshiba TV, similar to the IIc going to the IIc monitor.
• The MiSTer purple color looks purple on the Toshiba TV similar to the IIc connected to the IIc monitor.

Conclusion:

• The IIc monitor seems to be calibrated for input from the IIc's composite output. It looks great. Connecting something other than the IIc looks a little dull and has the wrong colors. SNES looks dull too on the IIc monitor. I think I will put the IIc monitor controls back down a bit so they aren't oversaturated with the IIc.
• The composite on the Toshiba TV looks great from the MiSTer, probably because they are both standardized, and the IIc and IIc monitor have a different expectation in terms of what to send and receive

BW mode stays in BW. I had to use Color mode. Can anyone confirm if BW mode appears in color using their older analog I/O board? With the new one, I am getting black and white. All other cores I try work in color with the composite output, but I don't see a way to change the output mode to B&W on the other cores.

Thanks!

[Newsdee]

• The IIc monitor seems to be calibrated for input from the IIc's composite output. It looks great. Connecting something other than the IIc looks a little dull and has the wrong colors.
  

That's very likely - each CRT monitor/TV is a little different. At least it seems like we can replicate closely those colors with standard equipment (other TV + MiSTer), which means it will be accessible to more people.

BW mode stays in BW. I had to use Color mode. Can anyone confirm if BW mode appears in color using their older analog I/O board? With the new one, I am getting black and white.

I got my composite MiSTer adapter but did not try it yet (I do have a newer IO board though)

[Newsdee]

The core works great in B&W mode with my Analogue IO + Composite adapter from UltimateMister

This is taken from my X-Capture-1 card.
I had to fiddle with the settings a bit (Hue: 0, Saturation & Sharpness:255, Brightness & Contract at 135) but it does look very nice

THe capture card seems to have a strong adaptive comb filter since the Karateka floor matches what is seen here: https://nerdlypleasures.blogspot.com/20 ... -ntsc.html

I do notice that the oranges are kind of muted, compared to the theoretical value.
That's probably an artifact of my capture card's NTSC decoding... every TV and capture card might differ a bit.

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[thorr]

The core works great in B&W mode with my Analogue IO + Composite adapter from UltimateMister

This is taken from my X-Capture-1 card.
I had to fiddle with the settings a bit (Hue: 0, Saturation & Sharpness:255, Brightness & Contract at 135) but it does look very nice

THe capture card seems to have a strong adaptive comb filter since the Karateka floor matches what is seen here: https://nerdlypleasures.blogspot.com/20 ... -ntsc.html

I do notice that the oranges are kind of muted, compared to the theoretical value.
That's probably an artifact of my capture card's NTSC decoding... every TV and capture card might differ a bit.

Interesting! I got my composite adapter from Antonio Villena, and it physically looks nearly the same. When you said you had to fiddle with the settings, do you mean the MiSTer.ini settings, or the capture card? Was it Black and White before you fiddled with the settings?