Dual RAM and Analog Output

[AmintaMister]

Hi there, some hardware-related MiSTer Fpga things are not clear to me:

1) why we can't use DualRam together with analog output with new boards like this?

2) what is exactly the A/V module?

3) the new 24 Bit ADV Video DAC is possible only with analog output or also with the digital one?

Thanks in advance for you answers!

[Hetzen]

I believe it's because the DE-10 Nano has two strips of i/o pins that can be used for 2xRAM modules OR 1xRAM module and 1xAnalogue video conversion.

The ADC is what converts digital values to an analogue voltage curve that mimics the analogue video requirements of older CRT monitors. It has no effect through HDMI. HDMI's data stream is digital, so no need for conversion. Bottom line is, if you're not going to use a CRT, then you don't need it, and use the i/o pins for an extra RAM module.

[AngelicLiver]

1. Limited GPIO pins on the DE10-Nano. If you are using the second GPIO headers for SDRAM you can't use the analog IO board.

2. It's an addon board for analog IO boards to output 24-bit video via the VGA port using a DAC.

3. 24-bit DAC is for analog video output only. The digital IO boards do not have analog video out. HDMI isn't affected.

You can still use analogue video with dual SDRAM but you'll need to use direct video.

[AmintaMister]

1. Limited GPIO pins on the DE10-Nano. If you are using the second GPIO headers for SDRAM you can't use the analog IO board.

2. It's an addon board for analog IO boards to output 24-bit video via the VGA port using a DAC.

3. 24-bit DAC is for analog video output only. The digital IO boards do not have analog video out. HDMI isn't affected.

You can still use analogue video with dual SDRAM but you'll need to use direct video.

Thanks! So via Direct Video I can't achieve 24 bit video?

[dickhardpill]

Thanks! So via Direct Video I can't achieve 24 bit video?

24-bit is achievable via DV

1 I believe you can use direct video and HDMI to VGA to get 24-bit analog out and dual RAM
2 the AV module is what turns the IO 9.2 baseboard (which is a digital IO board) into an analog IO board
3 From what I understand 24-bit has been available via HDMI for longer than analog as it wasn't available until the 9.2 board

[LamerDeluxe]

One thing is that HDMI to VGA adapters vary a lot in the quality of their output colors. There's a whole thread about it here somewhere.

[dickhardpill]

One thing is that HDMI to VGA adapters vary a lot in the quality of their output colors. There's a whole thread about it here somewhere.

I’m definitely looking forward to the Reflex Prism

[LamerDeluxe]

One thing is that HDMI to VGA adapters vary a lot in the quality of their output colors. There's a whole thread about it here somewhere.

I’m definitely looking forward to the Reflex Prism

That looks like a good solution, hadn't heard about it yet.

[lloydsmart]

I may be mistaken, but I believe the point of the new AV Pro board is that it utilises Direct Video, and is therefore compatible with dual RAM while maintaining analogue output at 24-bit colour depth.

The one and only trade-off is that you can't have simultaneous HDMI and analogue output, which could be important for streamers who need to capture via HDMI while playing via analogue. Unless this applies to you, I reckon this new AV Pro board is the absolute best solution for analogue output at the moment.

Can someone with more knowledge than me confirm that this new board does in fact work via Direct Video? And that therefore it is compatible with dual RAM whilst giving a high quality analogue output? Cause that's how it seems to me.

[FoxbatStargazer]

I may be mistaken, but I believe the point of the new AV Pro board is that it utilises Direct Video, and is therefore compatible with dual RAM while maintaining analogue output at 24-bit colour depth.

The one and only trade-off is that you can't have simultaneous HDMI and analogue output, which could be important for streamers who need to capture via HDMI while playing via analogue. Unless this applies to you, I reckon this new AV Pro board is the absolute best solution for analogue output at the moment.

Can someone with more knowledge than me confirm that this new board does in fact work via Direct Video? And that therefore it is compatible with dual RAM whilst giving a high quality analogue output? Cause that's how it seems to me.

Unfortunately there are several varieties of "pro" board out there now so you have to be more specific.

The new official standard 9.2 analog i/o board doesn't use direct video at all, its coming over the GPIO pins like the prior ones. There is a mezzaine that connects the top of the board to the VGA port, you can remove this and stick dual ram in its place I think, so its a very manual process to switch between dual ram and analog out functionality.

Misteraddons makes something called "IO direct" which does feed direct video hdmi out from the De/10 nano back into its own DAC via an HDMI in. And I think a few other sellers are doing something similar. But these are different from the official 9.2 board.

[lloydsmart]

Misteraddons "IO direct" is the board I was referring to. That seems to be the best of all worlds, unless you need simultaneous HDMI and analogue output.

[AmintaMister]

Wait, so with this one using DUAL RAM I can't have Direct Video via Hdmi output? https://ultimatemister.com/product/mister-av-pro/

[lloydsmart]

That board is an interesting one. It seems to be able to function as both an analogue and digital I/O board, but it doesn't use Direct Video to do it. It still uses the GPIO pins, so when you're using it in analogue mode you lose the dual ram functionality, and when you're using it in digital mode you get dual ram but lose analogue output.

You can still do analogue output via Direct Video (through the HDMI connector) but you'd need an external DAC to do that.

[AmintaMister]

The seller just confirmed to me that it works at the same time with dual ram and direct video output.

[lloydsmart]

Yes, it does. But direct video won't be via that card. It'll be via the HDMI port and an external DAC.

[AmintaMister]

Sure, via HDMI. Why, with MisterAddons you outputs direct video via "Saturn" connector?

[lloydsmart]

Yeah, with the Misteraddons board you get a little HDMI jumper that connects the HDMI output on the DE10-Nano (or MisterPi or whatever) to a HDMI input on the I/O board. Then it uses its onboard DAC to do Direct Video and output over the "Saturn" connector, which is analogue. No external DAC needed, and you can use dual RAM.

[akeley]

No external DAC needed

But you will need the special Saturn cable, which costs 35$, plus some adapter for SCART if that's what your TV has.

Some other things to consider (or be confused by) are
-far as I know 24 bit colour is only used by few cores (Saturn, PSX, N64) and there is a workaround for old 18-bit hardware here: viewtopic.php?t=7565
-Direct Video dongles can produce 24 bit colour
-it's hard to buy a decent DV dongle
-dual ram is really only needed by the Jaguar core

That’s not to say you shouldn't consider an upgrade, it's just it's not really all that clear-cut. Personally, I want to upgrade to new 9.2 AV board, VGA design (like Ultimatemister), and since I have a second MiSTer I might put dual RAM plus a DV dongle on that. But if I had only one, I’d probably skip dual ram altogether (Jaguar is not my priority).

[Lightwave]

But you will need the special Saturn cable, which costs 35$, plus some adapter for SCART if that's what your TV has.

You don't need to buy the cable from misteraddons, any Saturn A/V cable will work. For example, I have a composite/s-video Saturn cable laying around that I picked up for 5 or 10 bucks.

[rickdangerous]

The seller just confirmed to me that it works at the same time with dual ram and direct video output.

Yes, please, no confusion here, the official A/V Pro 9.2 is 100% compatible with direct video and there was no reason why it wouldn't be. We've had this board working and tested for almost a year now and the framework implementation is super stable.

[akeley]

You don't need to buy the cable from misteraddons, any Saturn A/V cable will work. For example, I have a composite/s-video Saturn cable laying around that I picked up for 5 or 10 bucks.

RGB/Component cable will be more expensive. Also, as RetroRGB says:

WARNING: Please make sure to only buy cables from the trusted vendors below!!! Most Saturn cables are built wrong causing the issue described below. Stay away from all “cheap” cables…and that includes anything on Amazon that isn’t specifically listed here!

Please note that I'm only saying these things up for anybody's consideration, not advising to buy or not to buy this cable or this or that board. There are just so many options and configs available at the moment, the choice can depend on different factors (eg your geolocation).

(in fact I do have a cheapo RGB cable for my real Saturn and it seems to work fine).

[Lightwave]

RGB/Component cable will be more expensive. Also, as RetroRGB says:

WARNING: Please make sure to only buy cables from the trusted vendors below!!! Most Saturn cables are built wrong causing the issue described below. Stay away from all “cheap” cables…and that includes anything on Amazon that isn’t specifically listed here!

Sure, if you need component/RGB you should grab a high quality cable. For composite (and less commonly s-video) which is the best connection available on the majority of North American consumer CRT TVs, the issue you posted doesn't apply, so any standard Saturn A/V cable should be fine.