AmigaVision 2024.10.10 Released with Internet Support + MiSTer CD32 Launcher, 182 Game Updates

[rhester72]

Fascinating, I'd never tried this. Mine shows 512K of RAM in-system despite 8MB fast selected. =)

[bfbiii]

Someone is borrowing RAM and not giving it back!

Only reason I came across this was messing with launching whdload stuff with jst. Or not as it were. Turned on the real miga to continue.

[limi]

I repeat a message from previous editions for those who prefer AMigaVision/MegaAGS forced to PAL:

Forcing the entire collection to PAL makes no sense. If you find a game that is erroneously configured for NTSC that should be PAL, file a bug and we will fix it.

I think like my colleagues here, the Amiga catalog is mostly PAL............

Not at all, and I wish people would stop repeating this obvious falsehood. Current stats for the 2733 games that have active configurations in AmigaVision:

• 69% of the games are PAL (1875 games)
• 31% of the games are NTSC (858 games)

As an easy rule of thumb: roughly one out of three Amiga games are NTSC, two out of three are PAL.

Running NTSC games like The Secret of Monkey Island, Defender of the Crown and Wings in PAL will:

• Always show the graphics with the wrong pixel aspect ratio
• Sometimes play the music at the wrong speed
• Sometimes introduce graphical artifacts
• Sometimes negatively affect performance

I highly recommend against forcing everything to PAL, we spent hundreds of hours trying to get all of these to have the correct settings by default for a reason.

PS: The original reason for including Force NTSC is that US consumer CRT TVs generally can’t do PAL — the option is there so you can at least try the game in NTSC to see if it works. But as a general rule, all PAL CRT TVs can do NTSC. Force PAL is mostly there for debugging and bug filing purposes and for the 3 people in the world that managed to find a PAL-only CRT TV (I have never encountered one ).

PPS: There was a point in older versions where some PAL shoot’em up games were set to NTSC because they were smoother that way, but we fixed that several versions ago. These are now all using PAL. There should be no need to force PAL anymore.

[lamprey]

I'm sure this has been diuscussed to death, but I was wondering if there are any other options are for playing PAL games on an NTSC TV that I've missed?

I know you can force NTSC. While that does work, some games seem almost unplayable becuase of where the screen cuts off. Are there any options to move/select the "visible portion" of the screen to tune this per game? I know there is the "ags-vadjust", but that only seems to work on the HDMI output.

Are there any external scalers (Extron?) that can handle a PAL to NTSC scaling? I'm using RGB so I don't/shouldn't need an color space translation, just a scaler that can handle PAL input and output NTSC 240p/480i.

I guess the final option is to just not worry about it and not play those games on my TV. And no my TV does not have an option for PAL. I've search through all the service menu settings and, unfortunately, one doesn't exist.

Cheers!

[rhester72]

If you're in the US, you can get a very fine 24" 1080p display with TATE rotation that will sync to every native refresh rate from Best Buy for around $120. It's a pretty easily-solved problem, and a LOT simpler than buying a complex scaler that will still produce unsatisfactory results.

[bfbiii]

Does screen adjustment work with direct video? If so, that's a free way to move the picture up, down, left, right. For PAL games that are actually 256 high, you can split the difference. Plenty of PAL games do not use the full 256.

There are lots of external boxes for moving the picture. Extron 201/203 RXI come to mind. But plenty of others from Extron and Kramer.

These things seem to be everywhere: https://8bitplus.co.uk/articles/rgb-vid ... ft-device/

As for actually converting the signal, there are Extron scalers and even Up/Down/Cross devices (used in video production) but I think you will be unhappy going down this road because of latency and more.

Maybe the OSSC Pro with the optional analog out could be a low-lag way to accomplish this, but serious overkill.

[lamprey]

If you're in the US, you can get a very fine 24" 1080p display with TATE rotation that will sync to every native refresh rate from Best Buy for around $120. It's a pretty easily-solved problem, and a LOT simpler than buying a complex scaler that will still produce unsatisfactory results.

Well that's the thing, I'm connecting to a CRT. If I was just using a flat pannel, then HDMI works great.

[rhester72]

Ah. A Commodore 1950 (or frankly any other multisync) would have you sorted, as would the Magnavox-tubed 1084S (which did allow for NTSC/PAL autoswitching). Forcing 60Hz refresh on a game programmed for PAL will never result in a good experience, even if you can make the screen fit (or at least I find the judder unconscionably bad personally).

[lamprey]

Does screen adjustment work with direct video? If so, that's a free way to move the picture up, down, left, right. For PAL games that are actually 256 high, you can split the difference. Plenty of PAL games do not use the full 256.

There are lots of external boxes for moving the picture. Extron 201/203 RXI come to mind. But plenty of others from Extron and Kramer.

These things seem to be everywhere: https://8bitplus.co.uk/articles/rgb-vid ... ft-device/

As for actually converting the signal, there are Extron scalers and even Up/Down/Cross devices (used in video production) but I think you will be unhappy going down this road because of latency and more.

Maybe the OSSC Pro with the optional analog out could be a low-lag way to accomplish this, but serious overkill.

Yeah, I ordered a shifter the other day to address the right-sided bias of the amiga display on my CRT.

I'm trying to find some good info on the scalers. By default a lot of the Extron's don't handle anything less than 480p. Some models have custom firmware, but I;'m not sure which ones or what the limitations are.

I'll haev to look more into what options are available for direct video. I thought I had read that it keeps the same refresh rate, so I don't think that will do what I want (i.e. I'd still need something to convert from the PAL to NTSC refresh rate).

I have a 13" PVM and I use that and a flat pannel in my office where I am setting up my Amiga/Mister Project. At first I didn't realize that it was outputing 50hz as the PVM just handles it. But, my CRT TV that I use for gaming doesn't work with PAL. It may just be the case where if forcing NTSC makes it so the game isn't something I want to play, then I just skip it or I can play on a flat panel or pvm.

I guess I'll do some more reserach on the Extron devices and see if any of them might work for my scenario.

[lamprey]

Ah. A Commodore 1950 (or frankly any other multisync) would have you sorted, as would the Magnavox-tubed 1084S (which did allow for NTSC/PAL autoswitching). Forcing 60Hz refresh on a game programmed for PAL will never result in a good experience, even if you can make the screen fit (or at least I find the judder unconscionably bad personally).

Yep, I get all that. I hooking this to a 36" TV to play some games. Basically, I'm using this like a console - a CD32 with a Terrible Fire Card - more than an amiga computer. If I wanted to play on a smaller desktop monitor I can do that. But, the point is to integrate it with my other consoles in my "game room."

So, I was looking for solutions that work for that scenario.

[rhester72]

Yep, I get all that. I hooking this to a 36" TV to play some games. Basically, I'm using this like a console - a CD32 with a Terrible Fire Card - more than an amiga computer. If I wanted to play on a smaller desktop monitor I can do that. But, the point is to integrate it with my other consoles in my "game room."

So, I was looking for solutions that work for that scenario.

Sure, I get that...but it's a bit more akin to hooking up a PAL SNES. The display makes ALL the difference, and there's no converter in the universe that will make that 'right'. You might be able to make the screen fit (or at least be centered enough to be 'close enough for government work'), but the refresh delta is going to make the experience awful no matter what.

I wish I had a larger-format TV to recommend...as irony would have it, I've learned that some of the very cheapest brands (I'm looking at you, Vizio!) actually have the best capability for syncing to PAL (and even more odd) refresh rates.

[rhester72]

Yep, I get all that. I hooking this to a 36" TV to play some games. Basically, I'm using this like a console - a CD32 with a Terrible Fire Card - more than an amiga computer. If I wanted to play on a smaller desktop monitor I can do that. But, the point is to integrate it with my other consoles in my "game room."

Wait a minute. It just hit me. You have a 36" tube TV?!? Wow.

[bfbiii]

OSSC Pro is gonna be the best at what you are after. You go line doubled from MiSTer HDMI out into Pro, make the picture any size and position you like (leave the framerate alone), decimate with actual zero lag back to 15 kHz. You have spent a pretty penny, but you get the feature you want.

[lamprey]

Yep, I get all that. I hooking this to a 36" TV to play some games. Basically, I'm using this like a console - a CD32 with a Terrible Fire Card - more than an amiga computer. If I wanted to play on a smaller desktop monitor I can do that. But, the point is to integrate it with my other consoles in my "game room."

Wait a minute. It just hit me. You have a 36" tube TV?!? Wow.

Ha! Yeppers.

Thing weights ton, well not literally.. but close!

[lamprey]

OSSC Pro is gonna be the best at what you are after. You go line doubled from MiSTer HDMI out into Pro, make the picture any size and position you like (leave the framerate alone), decimate with actual zero lag back to 15 kHz. You have spent a pretty penny, but you get the feature you want.

Is that using the "Extra AV Out" add on that outputs 15 kHz out? Probably more that I want to pay to do a conversion. However, it is good to have options.

[bfbiii]

Yeah that would be the primo way, with the primo price tag. You could skip that AV out and convert from the HDMI out of the OSSC Pro in another manner. Say, cheap HDMI to VGA dongle > cheap Extron (VGA to RGBs) > TV. (Just make sure you know the sync level coming from that Extron and what your TV can take!)

You could also skip the OSSC Pro and go with the GBS-Control... but speaking as a person who has built a few, expect to have to mess with the GBS-Control every time you turn it on. What you save in money, you lose in time.

[bfbiii]

And since we are WIIIILDLY off topic... It's great Amigavision is built around WHDLoad so you can always force NTSC. Amiga sure is wonderful that way. As are all the developers who keep it the best year after year.

[bfbiii]

OSSC Pro is gonna be the best at what you are after. You go line doubled from MiSTer HDMI out into Pro, make the picture any size and position you like (leave the framerate alone), decimate with actual zero lag back to 15 kHz. You have spent a pretty penny, but you get the feature you want.

Is that using the "Extra AV Out" add on that outputs 15 kHz out? Probably more that I want to pay to do a conversion. However, it is good to have options.

Hold on! You might be able to accomplish this with MiSTer alone. Well you can on at least one TV that claims to be locked at 60 Hz, cause I just tested it. Find a modeline for your analog out that works for NTSC Amiga. Something like...

vga_scaler=1
direct_video=0
video_mode_ntsc=640,22,57,65,240,4,3,15,12312
vsync_adjust=1
bootscreen=0

That'll give you access to the scaler. Make sure you choose fullscreen in the OSD. In a pinch, you can correct your image on the horizontal. Arrow keys left/right to adjust the left side. Alt + left/right to adjust the right,

For PAL games that are 256 high force NTSC and then use Amigavision's vadjust. Test this with the video mode above, or some improved version for your setup. Force NTSC in Amigavision. Go to demos > widescreen > The Fall. Hopefully you see that full demo more or less in the middle of your NTSC screen rather than stretched to oblivion. Or at least that's what I get on this supposed 60 Hz-only model.

If that works, best to ask the devs here the particulars of their vadjust tool.

[lamprey]

Thanks bfbiii,

Where do you set Full Screen in the OSD? The only thing I can seem to find is in the mimimig settings - > Audio & Vidio -> Aspect Ratio. Other than that I dont see a full screen option.

Unfortunately, none of my CRTs seem to like those settings. But, it gives me something to play with to see if I can get it to work!

[lamprey]

I was able to get 320x240 and 640x240 working:
video_mode=320,8,32,24,240,4,3,16,6048
video_mode=640,-16,56,56,240,2,6,20,11880

They booth look terrible, but the scaling does work. I can run a PAL game and see the whole screen. Very neat. Whish I knew more about this sort of stuff. Been a long time since I messed with timings like this.

[bfbiii]

You found the full screen option in the Amiga core, right? You were looking in the correct spot. Make sure to disable filters (scanlines, masks, everything)

As for perfect timing for your sets, I bet you can figure it out. I'm surprised you have multiple 60 Hz-only tubes! I just returned the one in question to my friend. RGB modded it. Paint by numbers from here: https://sector.sunthar.com/guides/

I thought of you when I noticed it was 60 Hz only and had to tell him.

I may be useless to you at the moment; my current sets switch between 50/60, no issue. Glad you've made progress!

[danytyler]

I repeat a message from previous editions for those who prefer AMigaVision/MegaAGS forced to PAL:

Forcing the entire collection to PAL makes no sense. If you find a game that is erroneously configured for NTSC that should be PAL, file a bug and we will fix it.

I think like my colleagues here, the Amiga catalog is mostly PAL............

Not at all, and I wish people would stop repeating this obvious falsehood. Current stats for the 2733 games that have active configurations in AmigaVision:

• 69% of the games are PAL (1875 games)
• 31% of the games are NTSC (858 games)

As an easy rule of thumb: roughly one out of three Amiga games are NTSC, two out of three are PAL.

Running NTSC games like The Secret of Monkey Island, Defender of the Crown and Wings in PAL will:

• Always show the graphics with the wrong pixel aspect ratio
• Sometimes play the music at the wrong speed
• Sometimes introduce graphical artifacts
• Sometimes negatively affect performance

I highly recommend against forcing everything to PAL, we spent hundreds of hours trying to get all of these to have the correct settings by default for a reason.

PS: The original reason for including Force NTSC is that US consumer CRT TVs generally can’t do PAL — the option is there so you can at least try the game in NTSC to see if it works. But as a general rule, all PAL CRT TVs can do NTSC. Force PAL is mostly there for debugging and bug filing purposes and for the 3 people in the world that managed to find a PAL-only CRT TV (I have never encountered one ).

PPS: There was a point in older versions where some PAL shoot’em up games were set to NTSC because they were smoother that way, but we fixed that several versions ago. These are now all using PAL. There should be no need to force PAL anymore.

In previous versions you responded to this in a similar way, and the work of treating the games one by one is appreciated. What I did at that time was test the image and verify that by forcing PAL, all the games I tried looked perfect, comparing CRT TV and real machine. I reported a single example, which was Lemmings 2, without going deeper, and tested again in this new version it’s still bad.

So for me the right decision is still to force PAL and all the games I've tried so far look as they should.

[clarkkent]

Cool new game

https://zener.itch.io/absolute-zero

[bfbiii]

Of course play games however you like. If you are really motivated to never see an NTSC resolution again, delete the screen mode from workbench, make a copy of PAL Low Res and rename it NTSC

Ironically if there was ever a game without one true resolution, Lemmings 2 might take the cake. In NTSC and PAL releases you just hit Tab to change 50/60 Hz. You change on the fly like butter, without messing up the music. Psygnosis was so sensitive to PAL and NTSC that the gameplay photos in the manuals, both PAL and NTSC, are the equivalent of 320x220, exactly splitting the difference between what they estimated as a PAL 1:1 PAR of 320x200 and a person in NTSC-land stretching their DAR to exactly 4:3, or 320x240. Mind you CRTs don't work this way precisely, but you can see they put in CARE. Of course in the intro the NTSC moon is no circle, and there's the location of the developers argument, etc, etc, etc. Anyway, play as you like. But I'm not so sure Lemmings 2 is the hill to die on here... Is there a pun there? Almost. Almost... Let's go!

[danytyler]

Lemmings 2 is not the big problem. I'ts just one example of the image-cutting problem and characters like Dan Akroid in "Coneheads."

Those 31% referred NTSC almost all have their pal version. But the other 69% PAL doesn't have an NTSC version.
The Commodore Amiga that I remember was enjoyed with CRT TVs and mostly PAL. But of course everyone is free to design their own memories or enjoy it as they wish.

[bfbiii]

69% PAL-only is one bold claim

If some historical accuracy is a goal, I would consider why there are an epic ton of 320x200 games on the Amiga... an NTSC resolution. And then I'd consider how by definition the games library cannot therefore be 69% PAL-only.

I'd also take a look at Amiga history 1985-1990 with special attention both to gaming and non-gaming hardware and software alike. There's some monumental stuff that never made it to PAL-land then or ever.

[rhester72]

Actually, a very significant number of PAL-intended games were indeed 320x200 resolution for performance reasons. That is absolutely no indication whatsoever of the intended target video standard. (Obviously, 320x256 is unabashedly PAL, but they are actually by far the rarity in PAL land.)

[bfbiii]

I never said it was an indication of NTSC, I said it was an NTSC resolution, and you know as well as I that it was ALSO used for the convenience of compatibility. No doubt it helped performance too.

[Chris23235]

I never said it was an indication of NTSC, I said it was an NTSC resolution, and you know as well as I that it was ALSO used for the convenience of compatibility. No doubt it helped performance too.

It is not an NTSC resolution, an NTSC picture is made of 480 scanlines, so the closest thing you get to an NTSC resolution would bei 240p because this is exactly 50% of the vertical NTSC resolution.
320x200 pixels was a widely used resolution in the 1980s outside the NTSC territories. The BBC and the CPC never made it to NTSC land at all and both featured 320x200 resolutions as well. The reason was that it was possible to fit 320x200 screens with 8 colours in a small video memory. The resolution was widespread in PAL and NTSC territory and had nothing to do with the TV signal.

[bfbiii]

There is no claim anywhere to be found on this board that 320x200 was used exclusively in NTC regions. Literally the opposite is stated.

The people who made the Amiga themselves label these resolutions NTSC and PAL from day one.

HardwareRef.JPG (73.29 KiB) Viewed 30175 times

It's also in the OS as "NTSC: Low Res" and "PAL: Low Res," etc. by wb2.0+. I mean, NTSC and PAL are composite signals, people use these terms in shorthand to get across some information. And surely a 320x200 signal at 50Hz is not magically NTSC.

Anyway if someone wants to believe using 320x200 for a crazy amount of games had literally nothing to do with compatibility, and that that's not the same resolution (not timing) as "NTSC: Low res" then that's what they believe. More power!

I'll be way more specific about the claim above. "But the other 69% PAL doesn't have an NTSC version." is an assertion that all of the games that AmigaVision has set to PAL lack an NTSC release. Let's see, if we take just the A folder, I spy...

Archipelagos
Agony
Amnios
Aquaventura
Arena
Armour-Geddon
Atomino

Set to PAL for good reason; have an NTSC release. I'm sure there are many more.