AmigaVision 2024.10.10 Released with Internet Support + MiSTer CD32 Launcher, 182 Game Updates

[niallquinn]

69% PAL-only is one bold claim

If some historical accuracy is a goal, I would consider why there are an epic ton of 320x200 games on the Amiga... an NTSC resolution. And then I'd consider how by definition the games library cannot therefore be 69% PAL-only.

I'd also take a look at Amiga history 1985-1990 with special attention both to gaming and non-gaming hardware and software alike. There's some monumental stuff that never made it to PAL-land then or ever.

If I remember righthly, the conversion of Space Harrier was crap on the Amiga, whereas the USA release, was totally full screen, so you're probably right.
But out Amiga lastesd longer than yours, ask David Pleasance, it was only Amiga UK keeping it afloat. And his talk about the CD64 is great stuff.

[bfbiii]

Believe me I ADORE PAL Amiga. From 1990 on I could walk into bookstores in the states and grab nearly a dozen Amiga magazines from the shelves, very few from North American origin. It was heaven. And most of them were truly fun. I remember Amiga World as one of the only remaining US pickups. Less about fun, but equally loved by me. But PAL is beloved by this user without a single caveat.

[rhester72]

a) You are conflating asset resolution and screen resolution. They are not the same. In fact, several PAL titles have PAL-sized assets for title screens but the game proper uses 320x200 assets.

b) There are indeed PAL games that will crash or otherwise malfunction on NTSC, yet use 320x200 assets.

c) The games in AmigaVision that are presented as PAL even though they had NTSC releases is because the original release of the game was in PAL territories, and thus is the most 'correct' from the developer's standpoint (i.e. most true to their intended vision). Lots of after-the-fact NTSC releases suffered not being properly scaled from a speed perspective (a fantastic example is the PowerMonger title tune) and thus not presented as the designers intended.

[bfbiii]

I promise you I would gladly admit if I didn't know a) b) and c) extremely well. No one thinks any use of 320x200 means developers were only targeting NTSC. That would be absolute bananas. Given, just... facts. I was simply making the point that when someone obviously overstates that 69% of the game library is PAL only... well, come on now, plenty of games DO still work in NTSC because of their resolution, of course plenty crash, have separate NTSC releases, some good releases, some bad, etc.

[rhester72]

I'm not certain anyone made the claim that 69% of the library is "PAL only", but if you make the claim in terms of region-of-origin, I'd say that's pretty close (largely owing to US-based studios moving on in 1992 after the slow collapse of Commodore while Europe championed on) and thus warrants being presented that way.

[bfbiii]

Lemmings 2 is not the big problem. I'ts just one example of the image-cutting problem and characters like Dan Akroid in "Coneheads."

Those 31% referred NTSC almost all have their pal version. But the other 69% PAL doesn't have an NTSC version.
The Commodore Amiga that I remember was enjoyed with CRT TVs and mostly PAL. But of course everyone is free to design their own memories or enjoy it as they wish.

The claim is "But the other 69% PAL doesn't have an NTSC version." I was able to establish that that is not true by glancing at a single letter in the alphabet and naming games with an NTSC release that are displayed in PAL by AmigaVision. Note: I think AmigaVision's reasoning is absolutely sound. I'm sure no one wants to read this long thread, but to be clear, that is where this came from. @danytyler made a claim that I first characterized as "bold" and later bothered to look into for one letter of the alphabet, because it seemed easily disproved.

[Chris23235]

Lemmings 2 is not the big problem. I'ts just one example of the image-cutting problem and characters like Dan Akroid in "Coneheads."

Those 31% referred NTSC almost all have their pal version. But the other 69% PAL doesn't have an NTSC version.
The Commodore Amiga that I remember was enjoyed with CRT TVs and mostly PAL. But of course everyone is free to design their own memories or enjoy it as they wish.

The claim is "But the other 69% PAL doesn't have an NTSC version." I was able to establish that that is not true by glancing at a single letter in the alphabet and naming games with an NTSC release that are displayed in PAL by AmigaVision. Note: I think AmigaVision's reasoning is absolutely sound. I'm sure no one wants to read this long thread, but to be clear, that is where this came from. @danytyler made a claim that I first characterized as "bold" and later bothered to look into for one letter of the alphabet, because it seemed easily disproved.

Maybe I am completely missing the point here, but all the games you listed were developed in Europe and were clearly made with PAL machines in mind. Why do you least these to proof your point?

[bfbiii]

Definitely missing my point.

1) There is nothing wrong with AmigaVision's way of doing this. What they have done makes sense and is consistent.
2) @danytyler said every single game that AmigaVision has set to PAL never had an NTSC release. Those games I listed had literal NTSC releases TOO. Of course they are PAL developers, and displayed in PAL in Amigavison In order to check whether what he said was true, I was required to find games from PAL developers, and see if they released those games officially as NTSC games too. It's easy to pick those out because they even have NTSC WHDLoad installs, so they stick out quite easily.

[rhester72]

Legitimate question to stir debate:

Origin releases (Ultima, et al) were originally US games by a US development company, then ported to Amiga variously by both US and UK developers (depending on the individual game).

They are presented in PAL in AmigaVision with a bottom black bar, but I might argue that given the original audience was US PC users, perhaps Origin games should (with no exceptions that I can see) be reclassed as NTSC in AmigaVision both for proper aspect and speed?

[limi]

Absolutely a legitimate question. File a bug in the issue tracker, and I will look at it? Most PC ports are classified as NTSC (since they are 320×200), maybe we missed the Ultima series?

[rhester72]

Absolutely a legitimate question. File a bug in the issue tracker, and I will look at it? Most PC ports are classified as NTSC (since they are 320×200), maybe we missed the Ultima series?

I want to go through the full Origin library to try to make a thoughtful recommendation. (For example, I'd actually argue that the OCS version of Wing Commander should be NTSC, yet the CD32 version should be PAL as the latter machine never really made it into NTSC territories and thus isn't how people actually saw the game.)

Give me a few days. =)

[rhester72]

Well, that was easy. It's only Ultima VI. =)

Before I formally bug this, one other philosophical question.

Wing Commander (OCS)[en] is obviously NTSC. However, so is Wing Commander (OCS)[de]...but I'd argue the latter should probably be PAL, as that's how folks in European territories presumably actually played and remember the game. In fact, I'd say that for all "US" games that were localized, that should probably be the case. Your thoughts?

[limi]

Well, that was easy. It's only Ultima VI. =)

Great!

Wing Commander (OCS)[en] is obviously NTSC. However, so is Wing Commander (OCS)[de]...but I'd argue the latter should probably be PAL, as that's how folks in European territories presumably actually played and remember the game. In fact, I'd say that for all "US" games that were localized, that should probably be the case. Your thoughts?

I think having the game run at the intended speed with the graphics in the right aspect ratio overrides any translation.

Most people in Europe played Defender of the Crown and Wings in PAL — and I would guess that was by far the majority of Amiga game players — that doesn’t mean we should do that by default.

The more interesting “philosophical” question is: Should we have a mode that is 5:6 Pixel Aspect Ratio but runs in 50hz for all the Atari ports, since that platform was 320×200, same as Amiga NTSC?

[rhester72]

The more interesting “philosophical” question is: Should we have a mode that is 5:6 Pixel Aspect Ratio but runs in 50hz for all the Atari ports, since that platform was 320×200, same as Amiga NTSC?

Hmm. I'm on the fence about this. I'm well aware that a HUGE amount of ST titles (especially arcade ports) were created in Europe, so for that reason I'd tend to say no (and leave it PAL AR), but it's likely the assets were mostly NTSC-ish AR...what I'm really talking about is the "circle problem".

Not being in Europe nor particularly strongly familiar with the ST games library, I'd defer to you on this one.

[rhester72]

@limi,

I looked at the documentation on the AmigaVision site and attempted to search here, but I can't for the life of me find where you described how to change by hand whether a title launches in NTSC or PAL. Could you please remind me/us?

[bfbiii]

Personally I add a PAL or NTSC tooltype to the game in Workbench.

[rhester72]

Tried that - it fixes the AR but not the framerate.

[bfbiii]

Ah, from Workbench the tooltypes function as expected in terms of PAL/NTSC AR & timing. Don't know how to change the behavior for the launcher outside of the force option. I'm sure @limi has the answers you seek.

[rhester72]

You are referring to the tooltypes in the data/G/... directory icons for each game, yes? If so, that's what I did, and launching from WB still gave me 50Hz output with the NTSC tooltype.

How does one force via the launcher?

[bfbiii]

Yes, if I go to Data>G>L>Lotus and I add "NTSC" to the Lotus image through info, save, double click Lotus image > I get the stretched graphics and sped up game/music I grew up with.

Alternately I get the same if I go to "options" in the launcher. Choose "Force NTSC," the launcher resets, and then I launch Lotus from there.

If we are getting different results with the above, then I have to imagine something is different with our Mister.ini settings or use case?

[rhester72]

I'm not sure - I'm not going by music speed for refresh, I'm looking at the actual signal being passed to the monitor.

If you set the NTSC tooltype for Ultima VI, do you get 60Hz output? (Also, which Lotus are you using so I can try to replicate your result?)

[bfbiii]

I was using Lotus 1.

Take me a minute to set up my MiSTer with a TV that will display incoming Hz. But I'll report back in a few.

[bfbiii]

Yes, I get 60Hz in Lotus & Ultima VI using those methods.

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[rhester72]

Huh.

I get 60Hz launching Lotus from Workbench even without the NTSC tooltype, despite it being PAL from the launcher. I'm very confused.

[bfbiii]

Hmm. Yeah, I'd be taking wild guesses at this point. The settings are all making sense on my side. But ultimately I feel like learning how to set it per game IN the launcher is what you really want. So your question for @limi remains the same.

[limi]

There’s a bug in how it’s handled, will be fixed in an upcoming release. Our testing did not reveal this in time for the 2024.10.10 setup, but I should have a fixed setup in a few days. More details shortly.

(although your discussion is about a somewhat related, but separate issue in WHDLoad)

[bfbiii]

In ref to Wing Commander CD32 above. Why bring up the trauma? I worked at an Amiga store in the US at that time. CD32s were easy to get from Canada, and CD32 games were even easier to acquire, but NOT Wing Commander--it only existed as a single disc pack-in overseas with Dangerous Streets. I managed to get maybe a dozen copies of that disc total, and the work I put in to do it was silly. That bundle was supposed to make it to the states, BTW, but Commodore decided to go belly up first. The combo I saw here all the time was Pinball Fantasies/Sleepwalker.

Amiga World in June of 1994 still holding out hope... bless 'em!

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