MiSTer FPGA Forum

KennyL wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 8:38 am

Here is bit of a PSA, current analogue IO boards (at least my Misteraddons board) don't have enough bandwidth to display PSX FMV smoothly. There are issues in-game also. Apparently this is a known issue but I couldn't find clear answers online. Thanks to some pointers in PSX thread I ran around like headless chicken all over the town last couple of days to confirm this. This is not specifically YC issue but I think a lot of people will use YC board with analogue IO board so I'll post it here.

Here is active YC board composite with IO board VGA on plasma tv. It could get very posterized. Using VGA pc monitor also looks like this posterization wise.
ff7-psxyc-io-01.jpg

Here is composite on real PSX.
ff7-psx1001-01.jpg

YC + IO board
ff7-psxyc-io-06.jpg

Real PSX
ff7-psx1001-06.jpg

Using YC board and direct video is good for PSX core. A little bit worse than real console but much much better.

PSX core was probably beyond expectation so I understand why analogue IO boards were not spec'd with higher VGA bandwidth. It's still a bummer I might have to replace it down the road.

This is just because VGA on the analog i/o is 16-bit only. You need to just enable 24 bit vga dithering in the core and that difference will be dramaticallly reduced.

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/PSX_MiS ... SX.sv#L400

aberu wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 8:04 pm

This is just because VGA on the analog i/o is 16-bit only. You need to just enable 24 bit vga dithering in the core and that difference will be dramaticallly reduced.

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/PSX_MiS ... SX.sv#L400

I think analogue IO VGA is 18bit? But yeah it helps but it looks very different from real hardware sorry to say....

I thought most psx games were 15-bit, with a handful of still images being 24-bit. The 24-bit rendering option is kind of a hack that is better than real hardware, and the 24-bit dithering relies on it. There could still be an issue with the video output (always feels too dark to me) but its probably not simply being bit-starved...

PSX FMVs can be 24bit or 15bit RGB but mostly 24bit as far as I know. Color banding on 15bit would be really harsh and obvious so I don't think I've seen any 15bit FMVs. I'd actually like to know any games with 15bit FMVs.

KennyL wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 7:58 pm

green_onion wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 12:49 pm

Is the discord the only place to get the test build of the GenesisYC core?

I love the NES/SNES/PCE/PS1 YC cores over composite, but I've been hoping to see these implementations for a bit cleaner output for the Genesis/32X/GBA/etc cores.

Anyways my thanks to MikeS1's work on all of these. They're phenomenal to have.

Here is the link if you have discord account.
https://discord.com/channels/6479093974 ... 9741791342

I'm really not a fan of huge amount of discussions of open source projects are done in closed off places like discord. You can't even see what's in there if you don't have account.

I do have a discord account, although unfortunately that link doesn't seem to be working. I take it the link was intended to be a direct link to the file itself. If it's available to share, would you have a link to the server instead? Nonetheless, thanks for the assistance so far.

I know what you mean about it being somewhat cumbersome to have so many development and support networks flock to discord servers.

green_onion wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 1:26 am

I do have a discord account, although unfortunately that link doesn't seem to be working. I take it the link was intended to be a direct link to the file itself. If it's available to share, would you have a link to the server instead? Nonetheless, thanks for the assistance so far.

I know what you mean about it being somewhat cumbersome to have so many development and support networks flock to discord servers.

Oh crap ok. Server is https://discord.gg/misterfpga

File name is GenesisYCTestBuild.rbf but it doesn't show up if search it so search for "test build to shift the timing". Discord is just great....

KennyL wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:37 pm

green_onion wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 1:26 am

I do have a discord account, although unfortunately that link doesn't seem to be working. I take it the link was intended to be a direct link to the file itself. If it's available to share, would you have a link to the server instead? Nonetheless, thanks for the assistance so far.

I know what you mean about it being somewhat cumbersome to have so many development and support networks flock to discord servers.

Oh crap ok. Server is https://discord.gg/misterfpga

File name is GenesisYCTestBuild.rbf but it doesn't show up if search it so search for "test build to shift the timing". Discord is just great....

Thanks, I was able to locate it there. Much appreciated.

And after having tested it, the 15.75kHz timing does seem to help quite a bit with the horizontal shimmering.

You could just zip it up and attach it here like I did.

aberu wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 10:02 pm

You could just zip it up and attach it here like I did.

Thanks for posting that here. I didn't do it because I guess I was too overly cautious about posting other people's test builds without permission since I have a build of core that I was told to not share.

Hi I ordered a composite/s-video board from Antonio back in July 2020. Does anyone know if this board should work with the YC cores? I configured the ini and tried it on a CRT and a PVM but I don’t get a signal on composite or s-video

netbeui wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 3:32 pm

Hi I ordered a composite/s-video board from Antonio back in July 2020. Does anyone know if this board should work with the YC cores? I configured the ini and tried it on a CRT and a PVM but I don’t get a signal on composite or s-video

IMG_6581.jpeg
IMG_6580.jpeg

It will not.

dmckean wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 4:54 pm

netbeui wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 3:32 pm

Hi I ordered a composite/s-video board from Antonio back in July 2020. Does anyone know if this board should work with the YC cores? I configured the ini and tried it on a CRT and a PVM but I don’t get a signal on composite or s-video

IMG_6581.jpeg
IMG_6580.jpeg

It will not.

Damn that sucks! Oh well, time to buy another device I guess

Dumb question but do I need to enable Y/C builds in the update_all settings or is that just an old setting from before the Y/C stuff got into the regular MiSTer distribution?

netbeui wrote: ↑Tue May 02, 2023 5:53 pm

Dumb question but do I need to enable Y/C builds in the update_all settings or is that just an old setting from before the Y/C stuff got into the regular MiSTer distribution?

Nope that is over. Any Y/C cores are already part of main now. Just have to tweak your mister.ini to enable.

FoxbatStargazer wrote: ↑Tue May 02, 2023 8:28 pm

netbeui wrote: ↑Tue May 02, 2023 5:53 pm

Dumb question but do I need to enable Y/C builds in the update_all settings or is that just an old setting from before the Y/C stuff got into the regular MiSTer distribution?

Nope that is over. Any Y/C cores are already part of main now. Just have to tweak your mister.ini to enable.

Thanks FoxbatStargazer! I’ll uncheck that option in the settings and clean up the _YCArcade, _YCComputer and _YCConsole folders

There are still some cores that haven't been updated to support native YC. You might want to keep that update option turned on for those. I keep waiting for MikeS to add a YC version of the new beta TMNT core!

hi,
i want to build a mister fpga and use it with the correct display formats, i would even play it thru RF coax if it had that output (i wish it did, some old computers cant even output proper colors without it)

composite/svideo/chroma+luma are the best

so i was researching this thread and i dont want to change the topic from development to newbie stuff, so just pm a reply if thats better:

tldr i can see in the y/c output diagram that there are lots of options, but of all of those which have the absolute best picture quality?

any info is appreciated but like for example:

1) the analog board with a good luma trap seems like the simplest option but is the analog board's video DAC as good as those available if you go with the digital io board and an external converter?

2) and with analog io board setup, can the luma trap totally fix the artifacting or does it only lessen it?

ok thanks for working on mister fpga its really cool!

Hi,
I found this because I was trying to figure out why I don't have color via composite (Analog I/O) for a few of the cores (Atari 2600/7800 and Sega 16) and I am trying to figure out what I might need to fix. These cores have color via HDMI. These I appreciate all of the help here, so if I am understanding correctly, this is because those cores do not have Y/C support yet? If they do, and it is something on my end, is this a good place to find help with a secondary ini file to make them work correctly via composite?
Thank you!

Hello, it seems the dithering is not good in PAL

any reason why ? Any of you ppl have the same ? Also, I was just bored with the sonic waterfall example

SilvaHaloOne wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:33 pm

Hi,
I found this because I was trying to figure out why I don't have color via composite (Analog I/O) for a few of the cores (Atari 2600/7800 and Sega 16) and I am trying to figure out what I might need to fix. These cores have color via HDMI. These I appreciate all of the help here, so if I am understanding correctly, this is because those cores do not have Y/C support yet? If they do, and it is something on my end, is this a good place to find help with a secondary ini file to make them work correctly via composite?
Thank you!

I also have black and white in Atari 7800 using Y/C through an analog board so I assume that core is yet to be updated. Does anyone know where we can find a definitive list of cores that support Y/C?

netbeui wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 5:53 pm

SilvaHaloOne wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:33 pm

Hi,
I found this because I was trying to figure out why I don't have color via composite (Analog I/O) for a few of the cores (Atari 2600/7800 and Sega 16) and I am trying to figure out what I might need to fix. These cores have color via HDMI. These I appreciate all of the help here, so if I am understanding correctly, this is because those cores do not have Y/C support yet? If they do, and it is something on my end, is this a good place to find help with a secondary ini file to make them work correctly via composite?
Thank you!

I also have black and white in Atari 7800 using Y/C through an analog board so I assume that core is yet to be updated. Does anyone know where we can find a definitive list of cores that support Y/C?

I have Mike's YC Core downloader activated in update_all which pulls down everything that doesn't have support yet. The YC cores are gradually removed as support is added to the main ones. It might be a while before Mike and the core authors get to everything.

hi
i posted a question here a month ago, got no replies
so i decided to reread the thread and i found this link of a twitter post from QDA

https://twitter.com/qda/status/1509040851242029058

and actually the comparison picture on the right looks tons better than the specialized adapter and core on the left
like now this thread is even more confusing because the thread seems to say the one on the left should be better and it obviously isnt

the right one has the most of the kind of image glitches that actually make the old graphics look great, the one on the left looks more like if someone took a screenshot and then photoshop filtered it.

the stock core looks close to a real snes, the tweaked one doesnt look authentic

tldr sooooo uh in that case does that mean i don't need any specialized adapters/hardware to get that look?
the caption says "hardware vga to composite adapter" but which specific one? any other info on this please? thanks!

FragLag wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 4:18 am

hi
i posted a question here a month ago, got no replies
so i decided to reread the thread and i found this link of a twitter post from QDA

https://twitter.com/qda/status/1509040851242029058

and actually the comparison picture on the right looks tons better than the specialized adapter and core on the left
like now this thread is even more confusing because the thread seems to say the one on the left should be better and it obviously isnt

the right one has the most of the kind of image glitches that actually make the old graphics look great, the one on the left looks more like if someone took a screenshot and then photoshop filtered it.

the stock core looks close to a real snes, the tweaked one doesnt look authentic

tldr sooooo uh in that case does that mean i don't need any specialized adapters/hardware to get that look?
the caption says "hardware vga to composite adapter" but which specific one? any other info on this please? thanks!

I think the objective of the Mike's solution is to have the best image quality over Y/C and alternatively composite, for people who don't have a better input type on their display.

The objective of other people, you and me included, is to have an image that resembles what the original devices used to output. Which can include blur, dot patterns, dot crawl etc. This preference will often be because we already have a good quality option available, like RGB SCART or component.

I don't know if an off the shelf VGA to composite adapter would achieve the correct look with all cores. Different devices used different ways to create composite from Y/C, each resulting in their own kind of artifacts. To be accurate you'd have to replicate that circuitry. Mike's solution tries to replicate the right dot clock per device, so its Y/C output should probably be a good starting point.

FragLag wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 4:18 am

the stock core looks close to a real snes, the tweaked one doesnt look authentic

No, a real SNES looks like the tweaked one. If your SNES looks like the stock core then you have a modified PAL SNES that is running at 60Hz.

No, a real SNES looks like the tweaked one. If your SNES looks like the stock core then you have a modified PAL SNES that is running at 60Hz.

mhmmm

so anyway what is the exact ("vga to composite") hardware used in the stock core picture that obviously looks better (as in closer but not exactly perfectly correct sure) and has dot crawl just like real authentic interlaced tvs using composite/rf used to have (which adds an unmistakable shimmer to still images that is totally absent from the tweaked image) and also doesn't turn circular/rounded metallic-band pixeltextures into gray spiral barbershop poles* WHILE destroying with hypercontrasty sharpness most gradients and sense of depth on overlapping shapes and also doesnt cause obvious obvious fringing along the topface edges of big huge title text? im sure there's technobabble minutia that makes you right and me wrong but i think i'll just believe my lying eyes on this one

obv there's no use arguing about it with the like of ya so no followups after this, like in my original ignored post i am just after answers to hardware specifics (which would have been so much easier to just reply to with a couple simple facts if anybody felt like being helpful) so i can buy this dang fpga machine and play some vidyah games

i mean like anybody can say what they want to say that tvs from 30 years ago looked like, awesome everyone's opinions, but if we could just dodge that whole internet argument thing and just list like dacs and adapters and brandnames and junk that's always just facts people can use hmmm

p.s. team hardcore ntsc so i dunno whatever about inferior 50hz pal snesses

• - i mean seriously look at the metal texture right under the T, and also between the T and R, or the single piece of metal under the E that turns into several disconnected pieces that resemble blue guts instead of a pipe, if it looked like that on a real snes i dont think metroid would have got that shiny nintendo seal of approval

tldr so anyway i guess i'll just buy a bunch of different random hardware then test and troubleshoot for months instead of just getting a recommendation

FragLag wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 7:17 pm

i mean like anybody can say what they want to say that tvs from 30 years ago looked like, awesome everyone's opinions

You say that, and yet half of your post is filled with observations based on one shaky Twitter gif Seeing as it's extremely hard to capture CRT images 100% correctly, perhaps not your eyes but the camera/monitor/colourspace/etc itself might actually be lying here.

Sure, if you don't like how Mike's take on this looks you're welcome to try one of the old solutions, most of which I listed here. The problem here is though that they introduce their own set of artifacts (depending on a core), which is one of the main reasons this new Y/C solution has appeared.

Bottom line is, if you want a 100% authentic composite look there is no other way but to get a bunch of original consoles. The MiSTer solutions are compromises. Sure, ideally I'd like one where it's possible to switch between improved (no dot crawl & extra artifacts) and "authentic" composite, but that's perhaps technically not possible (or a lot of work), so for now I'd personally stick with Mike's stuff.

The Y/C cores mostly improve over the original implementation. The philosophy in general for video on this project is to improve it over the original. It's what most of us want here.

FragLag wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 7:17 pm

so anyway what is the exact ("vga to composite") hardware used in the stock core picture that obviously looks better (as in closer but not exactly perfectly correct sure) and has dot crawl just like real authentic interlaced tvs using composite/rf used to have (which adds an unmistakable shimmer to still images that is totally absent from the tweaked image) and also doesn't turn circular/rounded metallic-band pixeltextures into gray spiral barbershop poles* WHILE destroying with hypercontrasty sharpness most gradients and sense of depth on overlapping shapes and also doesnt cause obvious obvious fringing along the topface edges of big huge title text? im sure there's technobabble minutia that makes you right and me wrong but i think i'll just believe my lying eyes on this one

I guess you can buy the Antonio Villena Composite/S-Video adapter. The € 35 one. That one will provide the extra dot crawl that you want but you can't tweak it.

You can also buy an Active composite adapter that works with Mike's composite output and tweak the values in the YC.txt file to increase the dot crawl to how much you want.

Got my adapter recently and I'm happy with it! Some cores are black and white but overall the level of support is pretty decent. Thanks to Mike i can make use of a little s-video crt i found before it was recycled.

MikkyTee wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:26 pm

Got my adapter recently and I'm happy with it! Some cores are black and white but overall the level of support is pretty decent. Thanks to Mike i can make use of a little s-video crt i found before it was recycled.

You should turn on the YC Core downloader in Update All if you want to get the cores that have't been updated yet.