MiSTer FPGA Forum

rhester72 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:03 am Oh dear word no. The ARM side is nowhere near fast enough to provide satisfaction.

Really, 800MHz Cortex-A9 is not that much different than the 900MHz Cortex-A7 in Raspberry Pi 2, right?

It MIGHT be enough for the 020 core itself

There is no "core" when we speak of software emulation of a CPU, it's a matter of translating 68k instructions to ARM instructions. Since the beginning of MiSTer, there has been talks about replacing the CPU core on the FPGA with software emulation on the ARM, so called "hybrid emulation" - are you saying this is not worth it? And if so, based on what experience?

but certainly not for the custom chipset or beyond. It wouldn't even handle AGA.

But the custom chipset and AGA is not the topic here - like I wrote earlier, the ENTIRE POINT of using FPGA in the first place, is to put the chipset there, but once you go RTG (P96), RTA (AHI), fastest possible I/O etc. you are no longer using the chipset, so why do anything on the FPGA? You could run FS-UAE for the Workbench/productivity experience, and launch games (or legacy programs) that require the chipset on the FPGA from there.

limi wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:49 am Grabulosaure posted a test build with RTG support:

Minimig with RTG support : http://temlib.org/pub/mister/minimig/

Installation procedure : https://www.fpgaarcade.com/kb/how-to-se ... 6-drivers/ Replace "replay" with "minimig".

Thanks!

I really wanted to try this with ShapeShifter (Mac/Mac II emulator) and I'm not disappointed. I put together a 10 minute video showing the following:

• My ShapeShifter config 00:10

• Version of Mac OS 00:55

• Speedometer 4.02 01:10

• Comparison vs MAC LC III 02:35

• AfterDark Toasters 02:52

• Photoshop 4.0 03:26

• Sim City 2000 05:30

• Price of Persia 06:40

• Sword of Sodan 07:35

The RTG makes the 8bit color mode very usable! --> https://youtu.be/Tg9epXn9CQs

rhester72 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:03 am Oh dear word no. The ARM side is nowhere near fast enough to provide satisfaction.

I wish people would stop propagating this nonsense about the HPS ARM being so underpowered...

The HPS runs Basilisk II (Mac II emulator) at Quadra (68040) performance levels with JIT disabled...

kolla wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:34 am Really, 800MHz Cortex-A9 is not that much different than the 900MHz Cortex-A7 in Raspberry Pi 2, right?

It has less cores, however, most of the other emulators I have used on the HPS don't really take advantage of multiple threads...

I suspect it would be very fast for stuff that is compatible with JIT and RTG - faster than 060.

Anyway, very much thanks to Grabulosaure and whoever else is involved in this significant milestone for the Minimig core on MiSTer!

kolla wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:34 am

rhester72 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:03 am Oh dear word no. The ARM side is nowhere near fast enough to provide satisfaction.

Really, 800MHz Cortex-A9 is not that much different than the 900MHz Cortex-A7 in Raspberry Pi 2, right?

The Pi 2 can't do it, either. A Pi 4 is nice, a 3B+ is adequate, anything less isn't getting it done.

kolla wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:34 am

It MIGHT be enough for the 020 core itself

There is no "core" when we speak of software emulation of a CPU, it's a matter of translating 68k instructions to ARM instructions. Since the beginning of MiSTer, there has been talks about replacing the CPU core on the FPGA with software emulation on the ARM, so called "hybrid emulation" - are you saying this is not worth it? And if so, based on what experience?

Sorry, we've been calling CPU emulation modules 'cores' LONG before FPGA existed. LOL Same term, different meaning. I was referring to the emulation components of the 68K only. I'm not saying it's not worth it, I'm saying it's downright impossible the way you envision it. See below.

kolla wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:34 am

but certainly not for the custom chipset or beyond. It wouldn't even handle AGA.

But the custom chipset and AGA is not the topic here - like I wrote earlier, the ENTIRE POINT of using FPGA in the first place, is to put the chipset there, but once you go RTG (P96), RTA (AHI), fastest possible I/O etc. you are no longer using the chipset, so why do anything on the FPGA? You could run FS-UAE for the Workbench/productivity experience, and launch games (or legacy programs) that require the chipset on the FPGA from there.

Of *course* the custom chipset is the topic, you just don't care about it. Unfortunately, even very base-level AmigaDOS (without Workbench) cares *VERY VERY* much about it, and quite literally can't do without it.

If what you're envisioning is an 'Amiga' without a custom chipset at all, just a UAE-like framebuffer on P96 (uaegfx) strapped to an AHI thunking layer for sound and an '020 CPU in ARM, you're not talking about an Amiga anymore, you're talking about something more of a DraCo. I'm confident it would run the 3 or so apps that ever existed for it quite nicely if someone wanted to invest the thousands of man-hours in creating such utterly purposeless emulation.

And because the custom chipset _is_ a requirement, even if you don't "want" it...you're right back where you started. You're not going to get blazing 68K performance from the ARM side, and you're still stuck with all the 'legacy' design on the FPGA side, so...you don't really get anything.

Then, of course, there's always the question of where the fast RAM lives. It'd make sense to put it on the ARM side, of course - that way the CPU and P96 can get at it readily, so you're golden, right? Oh, wait...P96 needs access to chip RAM to mirror Workbench, so now we have to port all the chip data over to the 68K side in real time for that, and at that point you're stressing the interconnect between the two sides of the DE10 to the point of breaking.

It's a nice fantasy. I cannot see a way of it working in any meaningful way in reality, nor can I see the benefit. Run WinUAE on a processor made in the last 10 years and it will smoke anything you will EVER hope to build on the DE10 Nano, and it's here and available right now.

You seem confused about what’s being discussed here, but that’s ok.... shoo, back to windows

No, I understand it quite perfectly, but I'm not quite so convinced you do. *laughs*

This reminds me very much of the folks on Reddit who seem prepared to start offering a sizable bounty to get VLC ported to the DE10 because...well, because. It's utterly, completely pointless nonsense as anything other than an intellectual exercise to prove you can do it, because there's a dozen better, *cheaper* ways to do it right to hand in most tinkerer's workshops already. I don't accept the "all-in-one" argument, either, any more so than I'd find value in a vacuum cleaner that could also make waffles. Just because you *can* do a thing doesn't mean you _should_.

a waffle making vacuum cleaner you say..... [homer icon]

Well, I would love to learn how AmigaDOS at very base level depends on the Amiga chipset (I am curious since TRIPOS which AmigaDOS derive from, doesn’t depend on it), and how P96 need to mirror chipram for Workbench, especially since P96 also work on “clone systems” (like the mentioned Draco) that doesn’t have chipram... it’s great that we have an expert among us who can teach us all about this.

I had a play around with this, my first problem was that it doesn't come with any screen modes (at least for me) so I had to grab some random settings file and then assign that to my minimig.card to get some modes to appear under prefs.

The second problem (which took me some time to figure out) is that only HDMI is supported, you cannot use it with a CRT monitor over the expansion IO board which is my preferred setup. Any plans to add RTG support for us CRT diehards?

Great work though, very impressive to have RTG for MiniMig


I'm happy to report that my AmiWolf RTG port is running already with this first update

kolla wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:16 am Well, I would love to learn how AmigaDOS at very base level depends on the Amiga chipset (I am curious since TRIPOS which AmigaDOS derive from, doesn’t depend on it), and how P96 need to mirror chipram for Workbench, especially since P96 also work on “clone systems” (like the mentioned Draco) that doesn’t have chipram... it’s great that we have an expert among us who can teach us all about this.

You do realize that Intuition (which is NOT Workbench) still has to paint *somewhere*, right?

I didn't say it has to mirror chip RAM. I said it has to mirror the Workbench screen, because it's painted twice - once in Amiga memory, and once in framebuffer memory on-card. There's no "direct" draw straight into the card.

I give up. Keep the fantasy. Doesn't matter one whit to me, because it's not going to happen.

rhester72 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:16 pm

kolla wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:16 am Well, I would love to learn how AmigaDOS at very base level depends on the Amiga chipset (I am curious since TRIPOS which AmigaDOS derive from, doesn’t depend on it), and how P96 need to mirror chipram for Workbench, especially since P96 also work on “clone systems” (like the mentioned Draco) that doesn’t have chipram... it’s great that we have an expert among us who can teach us all about this.

You do realize that Intuition (which is NOT Workbench) still has to paint *somewhere*, right?

I was not aware that Intuition is part of AmigaDOS.

I didn't say it has to mirror chip RAM. I said it has to mirror the Workbench screen, because it's painted twice - once in Amiga memory, and once in framebuffer memory on-card. There's no "direct" draw straight into the card.

Right, but that is due to physical graphic cards having their own memory - this is not the case on any of the FPGA systems, "Amiga memory" and "on-card memory" is the same memory - so (in principle) no need to paint anything twice.

I give up. Keep the fantasy. Doesn't matter one whit to me, because it's not going to happen.

Too late, it already happened, it is already working.

I truly have no idea what we're even discussing anymore.

To wit:

- If you put the CPU on ARM, slow/fast RAM will be on ARM and chip will be in FPGA. You're aware they are very different (physical on-die) memory subsystems on the DE10, yes?
- I NEVER disputed someone would port uaegfx to MiSTer. It was a given it would happen. What isn't working - and can't work, and won't work - is taking Amiga emulation entirely off FPGA and putting it solely on ARM, with or without ECS/AGA.

I'm going to withdraw from this discussion now because you keep changing the argument to a point that it's simply frustrating. I've no clue at all anymore what it is you're even arguing *for*, and I've entirely lost interest because it's super-clear that not only are you technically ignorant of both the Amiga and DE10, you don't wish to learn.

bbond007 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:50 am I really wanted to try this with ShapeShifter (Mac/Mac II emulator) and I'm not disappointed. I put together a 10 minute video showing the following:

THIS right here is what got me interested in trying out Minimig initially, or at least the potential of this. However, I have been pretty disappointed in performance so far. I'm sure a lot of that is just ignorance on my part on optimizations and I am hoping these recent changes are the bigger bit that was missing. I would love it if you could put together another thread detailing any gotchas when setting up Shapeshifter, if you were willing

ScreenGrabbing using win+prtscr doesn't work properly with RTG, I get a file, but it is 1bit grayscale, 1280x241 (running 1280x720) and essentially black.

Hi guys,
I'm new here. I'm trying to get RTG working but have a strange issue and need help.

After installation, I have got new resolutions as espected. Unfortunatly, when I chose a 16/9 resolution like 1280X720, the workbench is displayed very ugly and the Mister resolution information displays something strange like if the minimig were outputing 640X482 as you can see in this picture
https://nsa40.casimages.com/img/2020/10 ... 127235.jpg
https://nsa40.casimages.com/img/2020/10 ... 651750.jpg

Have you an idea please?

Than you

Is this HDMI or VGA? It looks like there is some bad scaling going on. Does AGA 1280x720 work better?

kolla wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:21 am Is this HDMI or VGA? It looks like there is some bad scaling going on. Does AGA 1280x720 work better?

kolla wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:16 am ScreenGrabbing using win+prtscr doesn't work properly with RTG, I get a file, but it is 1bit grayscale, 1280x241 (running 1280x720) and essentially black.

RTG addition to Minimig use the scaler in "framebuffer" mode (this is also used for Linux console and AO486 SuperVGA modes).
There is currently no acceleration (no blitter, no cursor sprite)

The scaler outputs to the HDMI port, it can also be wired to the VGA port if the vga_scaler flag is set.
The RTG driver automatically switches between normal OCS/ECS/AGA video and high resolution video.

Actual output resolution in RTG mode is set by the mister.ini file, resolution configured in WorkBench is automatically upscaled to this fixed output resolution. Note that when using this "framebuffer" mode, the scaler cannot downscale, so to enjoy 1920x1080 WorkBench, you'll need 1920x1080 or higher screen resolution in mister.ini
Screenshots don't work either (although it could be doable). Use native native Amiga screenshot program instead.

Upcoming MiSTer Minimig RTG support owes a lot to @MikeJ FPGAArcade and @robinsonb5 MiST code.

https://www.fpgaarcade.com/kb/how-to-se ... 6-drivers/
https://github.com/FPGAArcade/amiga_cod ... master/rtg
https://github.com/robinsonb5/MinimigAGA_TC64
http://retroramblings.net/?page_id=1422

Thank you for making this happen, Grabulosaure! And also MikeJ and robinsonb5 for the foundational work

RTG support has now shipped! Run your updaters and read the instructions for how to enable it on the Amiga side!

Thank you to everyone that contributed to making this happen.

Very good, hope to see better network soon

Wow. This is absolutely incredible. THANK YOU!

Oh my god... I can move windows and have them update almost instantly... in 16 bit color!

You are amazing.

Working great, except I can no longer adjust the screen position in the MiSTer menu, I press return and it says stored but nothing moves when I use the cursor keys.

Speed difference is so much better! Like dhoelzer said, the windows move instantly.

Wow, RTG for the MiSTer. This is a great news!

Congrats for the achievement and thanks to all involved

Has anybody had any luck getting RTG to work over direct video (HDMI to VGA) with a PC CRT? I've tried but can't get a signal to show. This is with the ready to go coffin torrent image that is around. I've tried different [Minimig] video settings but no luck. I can get AO486 to work no problem

NovaCoder wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:49 am I had a play around with this, my first problem was that it doesn't come with any screen modes (at least for me) so I had to grab some random settings file and then assign that to my minimig.card to get some modes to appear under prefs.

I had the same issue. I found out from (djhardric on Discord) it seems like if you install it twice and on the second time check "[X] monitor settings" (unchecked by default), you'll be able add a default.

From there use p96screenmode, right click and attach to card 0, and save...

NovaCoder wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:49 am The second problem (which took me some time to figure out) is that only HDMI is supported, you cannot use it with a CRT monitor over the expansion IO board which is my preferred setup. Any plans to add RTG support for us CRT diehards?

Its working for me if RGB with mine I select "vga_scaler=1" for [MINIMIG] in the INI.

I'm using a Dell ST2320L monitor which will sync to anything. Scaler does not support interlace, so depending on CRT (like CBM 1084) you may be out of luck...

NovaCoder wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:49 am I'm happy to report that my AmiWolf RTG port is running already with this first update

Have you tried your port of ScummVM yet?
I think I was the first person to bug you to add MIDI support

I have a ScummVM build for the HPS (https://github.com/bbond007/MiSTer_ScummVM) but it would be interesting to try your Amiga native build now that we have the shared drive and RTG.

Grabulosaure wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:12 pm utput resolution in RTG mode is set by the mister.ini file, resolution configured in WorkBench is automatically upscaled to this fixed output resolution. Note that when using this "framebuffer" mode, the scaler cannot downscale, so to enjoy 1920x1080 WorkBench, you'll need 1920x1080 or higher screen resolution in mister.ini
Screenshots don't work either (although it could be doable). Use native native Amiga screenshot program instead.

Upcoming MiSTer Minimig RTG support owes a lot to @MikeJ FPGAArcade and @robinsonb5 MiST code.

https://www.fpgaarcade.com/kb/how-to-se ... 6-drivers/
https://github.com/FPGAArcade/amiga_cod ... master/rtg
https://github.com/robinsonb5/MinimigAGA_TC64
http://retroramblings.net/?page_id=1422

Thank you very much Grabulosaure for doing the last miles of the journey to land RTG into MiSTer. This is probably the platform that can expose this technology to more users I think.

I have a question. As Minimig configurations include a video aspect ratio selection of 4:3 / 16:9 and considering that currently someone might be using both ratios dynamically during a session as PAL is 4:3 but we could easily prefer a 16:9 resolutionfor RTG, could there be a method to tell the scaler or whoever that defines the final format what is the aspect ratio originally being generated by Minimig?

cheers !

I’m a bit late to this having just dugout my mister, but are there any specific requirements for RTG in terms of OS version or anything like that? I read the info a bit further back on the frame buffer settings and have the FB running at 1920x1080@60. I just installed (reinstalled I think) P96 into my existing 3.9 install and then expanded the mister rtg package. After reboot the screen modes are listed but selecting any RTG modes just crashes my mister...

I’m running 68020 / AGA / 2MB Chip / 256 MB fast. Not sure of any other info I might need to supply. I ran the update script this evening so I’m on the latest (today’s) core and main also updated.

Ah, now admittedly I haven’t looked to see if there are any pertinent changes to mister.ini lately. I should probably check that since I notice a lot of new options in the OSD

[EDIT] Never mind. I just went through my startup and I was running fblit which isn’t compatible with RTG. Disabled that and now we’re good. And I must say, top work.

I think it’s already been mentioned but if I have scan lines enabled they are applied to the RTG screen modes. Not desperately a big deal but I think they should be disabled for RTG?

Heya folks, couple of questions for this...

Am using MegaAGA on my MiSTer setup, but Workbench won't save screenmodes. No matter what I change it to, once I run a game or reboot, its back to the default. Am assuming that's a permissions issue?

More annoying, I can use the lower resolutions like 1280x720, but if I try full HD - 1920x1080 or 1920x1200 - my monitor goes absolutely mental. (Hitting F12, menu still shows fine, but workbench is flickering and glitched to the point its illegible)

Any suggestions?

limi wrote: ↑Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:03 am
You can currently use the HD720 driver to achieve 1280×720 resolution — like I showed in this Reddit post — but I’d love to have something a bit better, since it’s kind of a hack with some limitations. (This is now included in the MegaAGS image, FWIW)


jpy6qw1pfbu41.jpg

What settings did you use to get the screen like you posted?
If I try to use Mister: HD720 as a result the aspect ratio gets shift also icons and gui elements get smaller. Looking at your setup I’m wondering how do you get everything at 720p to scale correctly. Can you please share the mister setting required to get it working like this ?