Direct Video HDMI to Component CRT 480i TV

[Tofana10am]

Thanks Thorr,

I was able to get vertical games such as 1942 and Mappy working well via the J-Tech converter. Obviously 480i via s-video would likely look better for these as you've already mentioned, however, it's already crazy enough behind by Sony CRT, so dropping in another HDMI switch and HMDI to S-video converter might push me over the edge. I have had zero luck in getting Donkey Kong and Pac-Man to rotate. There are no options that I can find in the MiSTer cores to rotate these games, eve the coctail vs upright settings don't seem to make any difference. Perhaps that's where the older cores would behave better. I was hoping that the HDMI output to the J-Tech box would allow the MiSTer to behave similarly to the way it does when I connect the MiSTer directly to my 4k TV (with the cores rotating properly - even Pac-Man and Donkey Kong without my intervention). No such luck I guess.

I'm torn between getting an authentic CRT experience using my TV which also supports light guns, and having a rotatable monitor to maximize the resolution. It seems like there is no ideal way of satisfying both goals.

I certainly appreciate the time you've invested in pioneering this area. Thanks for your contributions! Looking forward to seeing your Mister.ini and Mister_Alt.ini files when you have a moment.

Thanks again,
Bret

[thorr]

Hi Bret,

I spent some time on this tonight trying to get Donkey Kong to work again but was unsuccessful. The old cores don't seem to want to work when I copy the files to the Mister. Maybe I am doing something wrong. Mappy works fine like you said because they didn't implement the scaler changes to that core. 1942 is a Jotego core I think and doesn't have the issue. It sounds like you are as far as I am at this point.

Here are some screenshots: http://imgur.com/gallery/ZJpMlre

Mappy looks good especially if you use the Scan Doubler FX HQ2X setting.

For Donkey Kong, I provided three screenshots:
- The first one shows what it looks like currently with the bottom half cut off. If you rotate it 90 degrees with the menu, you can see the whole screen but it is rotated and not what we want.
- The second one shows what it looks like if I try to use the old core
- The third one shows what it looks like with the Svideo adapter

I really recommend for you to get the Svideo adapter because it will solve all of your problems. It works with any core and any resolution and downconverts it to 480i. I only use it for ao486 (rarely) and vertical arcade cores. The other alternative is to beg the developers to fix the 240p scaler bug on Donkey Kong and other recently broken cores.

I have attached my three Mister.INI files. The main one is for the J-Tech with direct video (no scaler). Alt 1 is for the J-Tech with the scaler. Alt 2 is for the Svideo adapter. I didn't clean them up so there is a lot of commented out testing stuff in there that can be removed.

Also, I wanted to know from you if the J-Tech looks better (brighter and more vivid) than the I/O board. Please let me know. Thanks.

[thorr]

I was hoping that the HDMI output to the J-Tech box would allow the MiSTer to behave similarly to the way it does when I connect the MiSTer directly to my 4k TV (with the cores rotating properly - even Pac-Man and Donkey Kong without my intervention). No such luck I guess.

I forgot to mention about this. The reason it works on your 4K TV is because it is upscaled which works fine. The bug is with downscaling. The Svideo adapter works because in the Mister, you are using a higher resolution to start with, and the external Svideo converter does the downscaling instead of the MiSTer.

[thorr]

I just came up with a new setting that looks really good on the Svideo adapter and also works on the J-Tech but there is a double image:

video_mode= 640, 16, 96,48,480, 10, 2, 32, 25152 ; 480i test

You can at least play Donkey Kong this way, but you are seeing double.

[pbsk8]

I have a crt tv with svideo input, I have asked here in the forum and people always told me that those devices add input lag

what about you, what do you think? Did it add lag?

I had found this but I don't know if it is worth:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07GVDWGK8

[Tofana10am]

Hi Bret,

I spent some time on this tonight trying to get Donkey Kong to work again but was unsuccessful. The old cores don't seem to want to work when I copy the files to the Mister. Maybe I am doing something wrong. Mappy works fine like you said because they didn't implement the scaler changes to that core. 1942 is a Jotego core I think and doesn't have the issue. It sounds like you are as far as I am at this point.

Here are some screenshots: http://imgur.com/gallery/ZJpMlre

Mappy looks good especially if you use the Scan Doubler FX HQ2X setting.

For Donkey Kong, I provided three screenshots:
- The first one shows what it looks like currently with the bottom half cut off. If you rotate it 90 degrees with the menu, you can see the whole screen but it is rotated and not what we want.
- The second one shows what it looks like if I try to use the old core
- The third one shows what it looks like with the Svideo adapter

I really recommend for you to get the Svideo adapter because it will solve all of your problems. It works with any core and any resolution and downconverts it to 480i. I only use it for ao486 (rarely) and vertical arcade cores. The other alternative is to beg the developers to fix the 240p scaler bug on Donkey Kong and other recently broken cores.

I have attached my three Mister.INI files. The main one is for the J-Tech with direct video (no scaler). Alt 1 is for the J-Tech with the scaler. Alt 2 is for the Svideo adapter. I didn't clean them up so there is a lot of commented out testing stuff in there that can be removed.

Also, I wanted to know from you if the J-Tech looks better (brighter and more vivid) than the I/O board. Please let me know. Thanks.

Thorr,

Thanks again for posting your no files. I’ve order the s-video adapter you recommended which will arrive next week. In the meantime, I’ll continue to evaluate your settings. As far as the J-Tech HDMI to YPbPr converter, I can’t say that I really notice a difference between it and the Digital I/O board’s output via YPbPr. I will say this, your scaler settings are spot on for my CRT TV though (MiSTer_alt1.ini). Both Donkey Kong and PAC-Man appropriately fill the screen when not rotated. This is something that I was struggling with previously. If only I could dynamically rotate the TV in a practical way. Vertical modes are still a challenge and 1942 has quite a bit of shimmering lines regardless of the vscale_mode settings.

I can’t seem to toggle between the ini files on the fly however (hold the OSD and Reset buttons), so I’ve been ditching out the files manually. Hopefully, when the S-Video adapter arrives I can set it and forget it using your MiSTer_alt2.ini file as the main.

Thanks again!

[thorr]

Hi Bret, you can easily switch between ini files through the onscreen display. Press the Menu button a couple of times from your controller (or Esc on a keyboard) to toggle between the two menus (one lets you select your core, the other lets you make general changes). Move left to see the Information menu. Move up and select the config you want. I think there are keyboard shortcuts also to switch between ini files, but I don't currently know or use them.

Thanks for letting me know about the comparison to the I/O board. I am slightly surprised you don't see a difference between the I/O board and HDMI but if you don't, then you could use the I/O board for your native timings and the HDMI output with the Svideo adapter for your scaled settings and you won't need an HDMI switch. Just switch inputs on your TV. When my CRT VGA monitor was working and I had the analog I/O board at the time (I switched it for the digital since then) I noticed the colors were less muted when using direct video compared to the I/O board.

The rest is for both Bret and pbsk8... Using any scaler (internal to the MiSTer or externally) automatically adds some lag, but it may or may not be noticeable depending on how much lag is added. You don't want to use a scaler all the time and just leave it that way because you are defeating one of the huge advantages of having a CRT (no lag). Everyone using flat screens has some lag. It may be just a tiny bit, but it is there. In the case of rotating the screen 90 degrees, there is going to be at least one frame of lag because the whole screen needs to be drawn inside the MiSTer before it knows how to draw anything rotated. The scanlines only move from left to right and it needs to know what to draw. With that being said, the Tendak device I suggested does not add any *noticeable* lag to me. Since it is not rotating anything, it is possible it adds close to zero lag as it scan converts the higher resolution input to the TV. Since it is interlaced, it would have at least a half a frame of lag since it goes back up to the top and draws the in-between lines. I would not stress over this though because it is extremely minimal lag. You just don't want to always use it this way since the native timings are better when they work directly.

Another issue is sound through HDMI. I have tried a number of devices (if you read through all the posts in the thread you will see the details) and the sound would not work correctly with some of the devices. The J-Tech digital and the Tendak both work perfectly with picture and sound. I did not try the device that pbsk8 suggested so it may or may not work as well as the Tendak. I also tried an Extron scan converter with an HDMI to VGA converter and the picture was not as nice or as stable as the Tendak and required manual tweaking to make it look its best with each core.

I didn't extensively test those new timings I posted for the Svideo, so they may not be centered correctly, etc. I tried them once and they just worked with Donkey Kong. When I get more time, I may tweak them. The timings in my Alt 2 INI file is for 1440x1080 so it will work with high and low resolution content. The MiSTer upscales to 1440x1080 not missing any pixels for anything and the Tendak takes all that and converts it to 480i and does a good job. The newer timings are for 640x480.

[slaps]

Just heard from J-Tech Digital that the HDMI to Component/VGA adapter has been discontinued.

"Hello,

Thanks for your message. Unfortunately, this device has been discontinued. Please let me know if you have any additional questions or concerns."

Kind of a bummer. Hopefully a new model or alternative comes out soon, as I only missed ordering one by a few days. Hah.

[Tofana10am]

Slapps,

It looks like I may have snagged the last one. Based off of my recent testing, it looks like I might not even need it as the Digital I/O board's YPbPr output from it's DB15 connector seems to be providing a similar result to the J-TECH Digital HDMI to YPbPr converter box. I'll continue to play with it over the weekend. If it does turn out that I do not need it, I'd be happy to sell it to you for what I paid.

Thanks,
Bret

[thorr]

Major bummer! I need a second one. I am building an arcade cabinet with a rotatable CRT with my 21" CRT TV. Good news is I found another place on ebay and just bought one. It is a bit more expensive, but at least I can get one. There are only three left. Get them while they are hot.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/313352385570

Edit: I got it and it looks the same, but it doesn't act the same. I don't recommend buying the one at the above link.

[slaps]

Thanks for that link Thorr, I've also seen a few that look identical on Aliexpress and Amazon.

Also thanks for the offer Tofana. I was under the impression that the DB15 connector was only on the Analog I/O board ... I have Digital boards on both of my MiSTers. Do you have a Digital with a DB15?

[Tofana10am]

Thanks for that link Thorr, I've also seen a few that look identical on Aliexpress and Amazon.

Also thanks for the offer Tofana. I was under the impression that the DB15 connector was only on the Analog I/O board ... I have Digital boards on both of my MiSTers. Do you have a Digital with a DB15?

Slaps, you’re correct...my bad. I mistakenly indicated it was a digital I/O board. Mine is analog only featuring the DB-15 connector.

Thanks,
Bret

[Tofana10am]

Hi Bret, you can easily switch between ini files through the onscreen display. Press the Menu button a couple of times from your controller (or Esc on a keyboard) to toggle between the two menus (one lets you select your core, the other lets you make general changes). Move left to see the Information menu. Move up and select the config you want. I think there are keyboard shortcuts also to switch between ini files, but I don't currently know or use them.

I can’t believe I never noticed that before! I’ve been nesting all my alternate settings under the various cores at the end of the Mister.ini file using the [Core name] tags. Thanks for pointing this out to me. Much more convenient.

[thorr]

I got the one that looks like the J-Tech Digital product on ebay but it doesn't work right. The electronics inside are definitely different because it can be powered from an HDMI connection and doesn't require the power brick. It won't lock onto the arcade signals. I sent a message to J-Tech Digital directing them to this thread and asking them to consider making more of these because there is a demand for them.

[Tofana10am]

Thorr/Slaps,

After playing around with my config this weekend, I’ve decided to revert back to my analog IO board for YPbPr output to my Sony CRT TV. I honestly can’t really tell a difference (which is a testiment for how good the J-TECH converter is). I’ve only had it since this past Wednesday. With that said, I’m looking to sell off the J-TECH HDMI to Component converter box I purchased. Please PM me if you’re interested. Asking for what I paid ($20) plus shipping.

UPDATED:

Thorr decided to pick up the J-Tech Digital HDMI to YPbPr converter.

Thanks,
Bret

[thorr]

Thorr/Slaps,

After playing around with my config this weekend, I’ve decided to revert back to my analog IO board for YPbPr output to my Sony CRT TV. I honestly can’t really tell a difference (which is a testiment for how good the J-TECH converter is). I’ve only had it since this past Wednesday. With that said, I’m looking to sell off the J-TECH HDMI to Component converter box I purchased. Please PM me if you’re interested. Asking for what I paid ($20) plus shipping.

Thanks,
Bret

Hi Bret,

I sent you a couple of messages. One earlier today and one just now. They are stuck in my "outbox". I assume this just means you have not read them yet. Did you get the Tendak box yet? How did it work out for you?

Thanks,
Michael

[Tofana10am]

Thorr/Slaps,

After playing around with my config this weekend, I’ve decided to revert back to my analog IO board for YPbPr output to my Sony CRT TV. I honestly can’t really tell a difference (which is a testiment for how good the J-TECH converter is). I’ve only had it since this past Wednesday. With that said, I’m looking to sell off the J-TECH HDMI to Component converter box I purchased. Please PM me if you’re interested. Asking for what I paid ($20) plus shipping.

Thanks,
Bret

Hi Bret,

I sent you a couple of messages. One earlier today and one just now. They are stuck in my "outbox". I assume this just means you have not read them yet. Did you get the Tendak box yet? How did it work out for you?

Thanks,
Michael

Gotcha Michael. I just responded.

I think I’m calling it quits on continuing to invest in forcing the MiSTer/CRT combo to do things that they can’t quite accomplish. My Sony CRT TV’s geometry near the edges leaves a lot to be desired, but what can I ask for from a Craigslist freebie? When I owned this TV previously (early 2000s), mine was much more well behaved. I’ve been in the Sony Service menu more times than I can say and I can’t get the corners correct no matter what I try.

As a result of the geometry, the vertical games (via S-Video with Tendak and some via J-Tech) do not display straight borders. My OCD drives me nuts when it comes to this, so I’m opting for a extendable/rotatable desk mounted monitor stand and a 32” IPS freesync monitor to handle the vertical and non-standard resolution cores (Dodonpachi, Kung-Fu Master, etc). I’ll use the CRT for all horizontal and console games. I can just swing the monitor out of the way for those, then put it back when I want to (as Maverick likes to say) “go vertical”. Hopefully this will be the best of both worlds...at least the best I can do without trying to rotate a 100lb beast. I’ll post a picture when it’s all setup.

[thorr]

Hi Bret,

Thanks for the update! I definitely don't encourage or recommend this because I don't want to be responsible for anything bad happening, but most likely the TV needs to be opened up and internal adjustments need to be made to the magnets on the neck of the CRT. The problem is if you touch the wrong thing, you could be hit with a huge shock from the build up of electricity inside the CRT. My 36" Sharp TV is not perfect and has a slight bow at the top. My 21" Panasonic TV is too wide on the screen cropping the edges a bit. I haven't fixed either because I don't want to kill myself or damage the TV trying to fix it to be perfect. Maybe someday I will look for youtube videos and watch others do these adjustments and get brave. I used to have a CRT projector with the huge red green and blue glass windows in the front and I replaced the tubes in it and adjusted them successfully. It was scary, but I survived. I also tried fixing my CRT VGA monitor and survived that too.

Here is one video showing part of the process and it looks like he has other videos too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAbqucrWHjU

A much simpler solution is to look for another TV on Craigslist. You might be able to test your MiSTer on it when picking it up. Try going into the service menu while you are there and see if you can make it good enough. Or, take it home and try it there, and put your other TV up on Craigslist so you don't start owning a ton (quite literally) of TV's laying around.

Your 32" IPS freesync monitor is not a bad idea. It will look good and work with anything. One thing to pay attention to is the resolution and how fast the monitor can scale 1080p resolution if the monitor is higher than that. Some monitors may add noticeable lag when scaling. Sometimes I think the upscaling is done by the video card if the monitor can't scale (I had a 30" 2560x1600p monitor that couldn't scale but it worked anyway at various resolutions). The MiSTer is limited in how high of a resolution it can output.

Good luck!

Michael

[thorr]

I heard back from J Tech Digital on ebay, and here was their response. It sounds like there may be more to come. This will be a nice alternative to buying the analog IO MiSTer addon.

Hi Michael,

Thanks for your interest in this product. We have seen a recent influx in requests for this product and will consider bringing it back to our product line. Thank you for your interest and reaching out.

[thorr]

The J Tech's are no longer available and don't seem to be coming back. However, I found this:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32857847060.html

Taking one for the team as a contribution to the MiSTer community (since I don't really need this), I am purchasing one to see if it works on my CRT TV and will report back when I get it. It says it should arrive around July 5. It seems like it could be a great product to take the HDMI output and give you everything you could want (VGA out, HDMI out for pass through, Component out, Analog audio out, Digital audio out). I am hoping I will have multiple simultaneous output capability with VGA, Component and HDMI at the same time.

[paulbnl]

That one looks interesting. I like the HDMI passthrough so it can stay connected if you want to switch to an HDTV.

Can you test if it takes longer for the CRT TV to sync when the HDMI passthrough is connected compared to a HDMI->VGA converter directly connected without HDMI switches/splitters?

When I connect the HDMI->VGA converter into a splitter then it takes 2 seconds to sync instead of 0.1 seconds without the splitter.

[thorr]

Will do. Currently when I play the Second Reality demo in ao486 it has these behaviors:
- Using direct video=1 (it actually works?! and doesn't always look perfect but sometimes does) there are no pauses.
- Using direct video=0 and the MiSTer scaler with the JTech component converter, there are brief pauses that kill the video and sound while it syncs as the video mode changes.
- Using direct video=0 with the HDMI to Tendak Svideo scaler together with the MiSTer scaler, there are brief pauses that kill the video and sound while it syncs as the video mode changes.
- Using direct video=1 with the HDMI to Tendak Svideo scaler together without the MiSTer scaler, it works similar to the component adapter, and there are no pauses.
It seems that the MiSTer scaler is causing a delay when switching modes.

I will let you know what happens when I get the new converter in July.

[FoxbatStargazer]

vsync_adjust=2 with the scaler will always drop when changing resolutions. Use vsync_adjust=1 (and live with that bit of lag) if you want to prevent drops.

[thorr]

Thanks! That fixed the issue.

[thorr]

The J Tech's are no longer available and don't seem to be coming back. However, I found this:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32857847060.html

Taking one for the team as a contribution to the MiSTer community (since I don't really need this), I am purchasing one to see if it works on my CRT TV and will report back when I get it. It says it should arrive around July 5. It seems like it could be a great product to take the HDMI output and give you everything you could want (VGA out, HDMI out for pass through, Component out, Analog audio out, Digital audio out). I am hoping I will have multiple simultaneous output capability with VGA, Component and HDMI at the same time.

Well after two attempts to order this thing from different places, I was in contact with the manufacturer of this and they said this is no longer in production and there is no more stock. At least I didn't buy one and let everyone know it worked perfect only for it to be out of production immediately afterwards.

[scylark]

I just ordered one of these: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07RFFWJWL/

It is very cheap, but looks like the multitude of others sold for $20.00 USD+. I believe it is a simple transcoder without a scaler so I'm hoping it will work, and offer a decent budget option. It also looks the same as one used by many others for getting 240p to a crt tv through their pc. I'll report back with my results.

Edit: Nope, no dice. I could get video on the menu just fine, but no other cores would display anything other than a blue screen with any of the settings i've tried. I'll be returning it.

I broke down and decided to spend some money, so I went ahead and picked up this VGA (rgb) to component transcoder https://www.ebay.com/itm/174166352619. This device can be used for a variety of consoles or a pc, so I feel it has a little more value for me compared to an IO board. It should also be a slightly more simple setup compared to the rgb2comp device.

[thorr]

I just ordered one of these: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07RFFWJWL/

It is very cheap, but looks like the multitude of others sold for $20.00 USD+. I believe it is a simple transcoder without a scaler so I'm hoping it will work, and offer a decent budget option. It also looks the same as one used by many others for getting 240p to a crt tv through their pc. I'll report back with my results.

Edit: Nope, no dice. I could get video on the menu just fine, but no other cores would display anything other than a blue screen with any of the settings i've tried. I'll be returning it.

I broke down and decided to spend some money, so I went ahead and picked up this VGA (rgb) to component transcoder https://www.ebay.com/itm/174166352619. This device can be used for a variety of consoles or a pc, so I feel it has a little more value for me compared to an IO board. It should also be a slightly more simple setup compared to the rgb2comp device.

I have one of those from the top link too. It's junk. Let us know how the rgb to component transcoder works out. I assume you will be using it with an HDMI to VGA adapter. Hopefully it will work for you. Many things do not like the direct video signal and are not able to deliver a solid performing CRT TV compliant component signal.

[scylark]

Ok, finally have an update. It took a while to get to me from New Zealand as it couldn't be shipped due to Covid-19 restrictions for a couple weeks. It came a couple days ago and I had some time to play around with it. So my signal path is Hdmi to VGA DAC (already had one for using on a CRT monitor) VGA cable to the Transcoder, and RCA "component" cables into a 27" CRT TV. I'm using Audio from the VGA DAC via 3.5mm to rca cable into the TV. The good news is it works pretty much flawlessly. I pretty much use console cores only, So I haven't tested the PC cores, but everything seems to be working great. Direct Video is enabled, Composite sync needs to be off or you get a slow rolling picture, and ypbpr needs to be off as the device already trancodes the color space. The signal quality looks fantastic, and lag "feels" nonexistent, so I'm happy with this setup.

[thorr]

Ok, finally have an update. It took a while to get to me from New Zealand as it couldn't be shipped due to Covid-19 restrictions for a couple weeks. It came a couple days ago and I had some time to play around with it. So my signal path is Hdmi to VGA DAC (already had one for using on a CRT monitor) VGA cable to the Transcoder, and RCA cables into a 27" CRT TV. I'm using Audio from the VGA DAC via 3.5mm to rca cable into the TV. The good news is it works pretty much flawlessly. I pretty much use console cores only, So I haven't tested the PC cores, but everything seems to be working great. Composite sync needs to be off or you get a slow rolling picture. Vsync_adjust works with either low lag or match display frequency. Match core frequency was causing some problems in genesis games and would actually cause my tv to shut off. The signal quality looks fantastic, and lag "feels" nonexistent, so I'm happy with my purchase.

Glad it is working for you! It sounds like you are using the scaler. Is that correct? Ideally, you don't want to use the scaler for most cores (the ones designed to be run on a CRT like consoles). Does it work with direct video (bypassing the scaler)?

[scylark]

Glad it is working for you! It sounds like you are using the scaler. Is that correct? Ideally, you don't want to use the scaler for most cores (the ones designed to be run on a CRT like consoles). Does it work with direct video (bypassing the scaler)?

Sorry, I forgot to mention it but this was all done with direct video enabled. I actually haven't tried it disabled yet. My understanding is that direct video disables the scaler, so I don't think it was being utilized.