MiSTer FPGA Forum

akeley wrote: ↑Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:07 pm Add to that the thicc-scanline fetishizm and things can really get blown out of proportion.

akeley wrote: ↑Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:07 pm So, the bottom line is that a "street level" consumer CRT set - assuming you find/buy one from the higher range, in a decent nick - should be sufficent for anybody

I don't really agree with anything you've said above, but don't have the patience to delve into the tedium of line by line rebuttals. The two quoted lines above, however, stick out for me the most. Displays are very much subjective. There's no right or wrong way to do things. There's nothing that "should be" sufficient for anyone if they don't subjectively enjoy it - these are all wants and not needs. Even within my own collection I jump between different displays, choosing razor sharp visuals with thick scanlines sometimes, and other times loving my low end consumer sets and their wonderful characteristics. This changes game by game, day by day, and I love revisiting old favourites in new ways too.

My on-topic point above was that a modern SVGA monitor (even the non-"Pro" models, because even at the low end they were all designed with a DPI for sharp, high resolution text reading) right here and right now gives PVM-esque quality for a fraction of the price, and works well with MiSTer thanks to its inherent ability to line-double out of the box, not requiring devices like OSSCs or RetroTinks that real consoles require. Yes, SVGA monitors are on the price rise. Everything "retro" is because "supply and demand". But I can still find them in my area, at least, for about 1/4 the price on average compared to a PVM. If you're after a sharp CRT, that's a great option. If you don't like sharp CRTs, cool. I won't enforce my choices upon you.

The "free street CRTs" in my area have all dried up, which is sad. Even poor quality consumer CRTs are now appearing in various online marketplaces with $100 price tags where I live (often MORE expensive than SVGA monitors, mostly due to awareness and hype), which of course is going to be different for anyone reading this in some other place in the world. If you do happen to live in a part of the world where they still exist, and you still subjectively love that lo-fi look, that's a spectacular option. For most of these devices lag is non existent, and we now have options to get S-video and even CVBS out of MiSTer which means you can safely hook up even the lowest spec of devices without needing to open them up and perform RGB mods.

Now, I'll be gobsmacked if anyone can take issue with any of what's said here. The best thing about MiSTer, IMHO, is choice. There are just so many ways you can connect this thing, to so many different displays. I'll be purchasing a couple more MiSTers later this year to replace the internals of several of my arcade machines now that CPS2 has arrived. But that's in addition to my razor sharp SVGA monitors, sharp-but-moderate PVMs, and "lo-fi" consumer CRTs, which are all scattered around my gaming area. There is no "one true way" to play.

elvis wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:50 am

Displays are very much subjective. There's no right or wrong way to do things. There's nothing that "should be" sufficient for anyone if they don't subjectively enjoy it - these are all wants and not needs.

The problem with discussing subjectivity is that pushed far enough it becomes meaningless. Nevertheless, I thought that the gist of my post should be clear enough anyway, but one would need to take my post as a whole, not just cherrypick quotes. Therefore, your reply which overall is implying I'm trying to dictate something is a little bit disingenious. There are enough objectivity clauses in my post (eg "Of course, all the best to those who have the means, and space, to take this hobby to the extremes"), plus the general context, to refute such implication.

To reiterate, my general point was that the quality of the experience offered by the decent consumer sets should be enough for majority of people. The reason for it is that they offer the best balance of size, colour vibrancy, price, and yes - sharpness. You might not even realize it, but referring to them you use terms such as "lo-fi" or "blurry", which to somebody new to the hobby who's deciding on a display method, will paint an obvioulsy flawed picture. In reality, a decent consumer set offers a mind-blowing quality already, with enough sharpness to boot. The difference between one and a PVM really is nowhere near as much as people paint it, plus there's the fact that by offering a more uniform image they might be even considered better for retro games.

And, again, people who choose to pursue the extremes are absolutely free to do so. They exist in every hobby. The problem appears when their opinions become so dominant that they skew the general picture, and that's what has happened in ours, a hobby which is already peculiar in the respect that most newcomers do not have a frame of reference, and also have been exposed to nearly 2 decades of emus on TFTs, screenshots from Mobygames, and the like.

An average VGA monitor is not really a substitute for PVM, even an "esque' one. And that was pretty much the gist of my first brief reply. I'm not going to go into detail again, since we're already in a "repeting myself zone", and obviously your mind is made up, so it would be rather pointless. That's not to say people shouldn't use them at all, but that it's worth checking out other options first, instead of chasing that flawed PVM ideal. If you really live in an area where obtaining a consumer CRT set is a problem (I do agree that these exist) then sure, go for it. But it doesn't hurt to set up an search alert on your local classifieds site anyway.

Another thing I can agree with you about is that these arguments are rather tedious, so I usually stop after 1-2 replies, treating it all more as a PSA - presenting a point of view alternative from the status quo to some passers by. So, instead of carrying on, here's a link to a few scr$ from some of my TVs. They look better live, due to the camera (and my photo skill) limitations, but it's just a sample of what can be achieved by using a so-called "lo-fi" TV.