MiSTer FPGA Forum

makjade wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:05 pm Very possible a N64 core wont be on the DE-10 NANO. But i do remember people saying the PSX or the 32X was not possible also.

I've been around the MiSTer scene long enough to recall them saying that a GBA core or disc based system wouldn't be possible. That being said, the one reason I don't believe that we won't get an N64 core is because the system is so complicated, that over 23 years after the 1st N64 emulator was released, we still don't have near perfect emulation to this day. It took more than 10 years after the N64 was emulated to get Saturn emulation going and it has surpassed it since then.

In my mind, getting an N64 core on the MiSTer will never happen. With that being said, it might be possible to get something that represents an N64, but is not 100% accurate, such as HLE (high level emulation like UltraHLE) where the parts that are not optimized on the N64 get rewritten in FPGA so they can work. This would most likely cause compatibility issues. Another possibility is to use the Arm chip to do some of the work. Neither of these two options would be the 100% equivalent to an N64. I already recently purchased an N64, so I don't need it in the MiSTer.

AmanoJacu wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:52 pm At least thanks to the cartridges, Nintendo didn't have to worry about the massive piracy that crippled the PSX (and Saturn) in some markets. Although some could argue that increased PSSX popularity, I still think it hurt games sales.

Attach rate + total sales doesn't pan out on this one. The PSX destroyed the N64. Nintendo fucked around and found out.

Owing to cartridges a bunch of games aren't even 64-bit. It was a huge mistake and without the Wii (and Switch) nailing the casual market Nintendo probably would have gone the way of Sega after fucking around so hard. Especially funny given without Sega fucking the Sonic 2 dev team and the SNES CD joint venture Sony probably doesn't even go a third as strong or goes out of business themselves after their TV business collapsed into flatness.

FoxbatStargazer wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:40 pm Carts truly crippled the N64 from a consumer perspective, it missed a lot of 3rd party attention for that reason. That had to play in to the muddy textures too. Then Nintendo repeats basically the same mistake with Gamecube minidiscs.

Its extra funny trying to put the 32X over the N64 though. The most impressive showing has to be what, Star Wars arcade, with its flat unshaded polygons?

Yeah as someone who “was there” and had both a ps1 (mine) and an n64 in the house (housemates) the carts were a huge limiter.

N64 had superior load times and graphics hardware on paper but in reality ps1 games had storage for more textures, way better audio, way more content (e.g. FF7) etc.

My view (and I’m sure I’m not alone) was that the ps1 had more “mature” audience games on it that looked less cartoonish due to the texture quality and space for audio. Sure the n64 could do AA and texture filtering but the limited size of (and space for) the textures gave n64 game textures a universal blurry look.

As above though the n64 had various components running at 90+ megahertz which is beyond the de10-nano if I understand correctly, irrespective of its rambus dram concerns.

N64 is an interesting console as the generation after that had more traditional style GPUs that are easier to abstract and emulate better via software. Imho it’s probably the last console where FPGA will make much difference vs software emulation.

Larkhainan wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 12:56 am

AmanoJacu wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:52 pm At least thanks to the cartridges, Nintendo didn't have to worry about the massive piracy that crippled the PSX (and Saturn) in some markets. Although some could argue that increased PSSX popularity, I still think it hurt games sales.

Attach rate + total sales doesn't pan out on this one. The PSX destroyed the N64. Nintendo fucked around and found out.

Owing to cartridges a bunch of games aren't even 64-bit. It was a huge mistake and without the Wii (and Switch) nailing the casual market Nintendo probably would have gone the way of Sega after fucking around so hard. Especially funny given without Sega fucking the Sonic 2 dev team and the SNES CD joint venture Sony probably doesn't even go a third as strong or goes out of business themselves after their TV business collapsed into flatness.

These takes always make me cringe. Nintendo would've never left the hardware market even if the Switch and Wii flopped. The reason is that they have an essential monopoly on the handheld market, and this is before and after smartphones. The closest competition they've ever gotten in the handheld space is the PSP which sold 80M while the DS sold 155M. Worst-case scenario is that the would've exited the home console space and still made their handhelds to this day. Sega failed because they're terribly managed and their core arcade business died in the late 90s and early 00's.

Btw, how is the Switch a casual market? I get the Wii, but it's odd how some people hate Nintendo so much because they're different. I'd argue that the PS5 is much more casual than the Switch. That's where all the Madden, FIFA, 2K, Fortnite, and COD casuals play.

The PSX would've beaten the N64 still regardless of cartridges. Their marketing budget was way above Nintendo's. If the N64 had CDs, in the best-case scenario, Sony would've just outsold the N64 2-1 as opposed to 3-1.

Anyways, the N64 and DS are 2 cores that can't fit on the MiSTer that I'm anticipating as far as the future of FPGA.

If you take numbers, from what I heard at the time – please correct me if needed –, while the N64 didn't sell as much as the PS1, it was way more profitable to Nintendo.

A console success is basically measured by two factors:
1. How many units you sell;
2. How much money you make with it.

And the second is not compared between two consoles, but between how much it cost to the maker (investment, promotional, manufacturing costs...) and how much they got back. On that side, Nintendo was happy, because they made very good money with the console and the first party games.
(But yet again, the numbers I got was on the time, just after the N64 EOL, my memory may trick me.)

As for the first, the PS1 outsold everyone and was the first part of "killing" Sega on the hardware side (the PS2 being the second part, as everybody knows). But the cult following seems to be stronger with the N64 than with the PS1. So, not that bad for the N64.

That said, full disclosure: I never gave a crap about the N64, although I love Nintendo. And I also never gave a crap for the PS1, just a little bit for the Saturn. But at that time, I have to say I wasn't much happy with how the video market shifted. It was the Dreamcast that got me back in.

Slipard wrote: ↑Sun May 08, 2022 5:08 am That said, full disclosure: I never gave a crap about the N64, although I love Nintendo. And I also never gave a crap for the PS1, just a little bit for the Saturn. But at that time, I have to say I wasn't much happy with how the video market shifted. It was the Dreamcast that got me back in.

Curious what you disliked about gaming's direction then. Did you perhaps see it as a shift toward half-baked 3D and an abandonment of traditional 2D-playing games / 2D artwork?

Wave wrote: ↑Sun May 08, 2022 6:40 am Curious what you disliked about gaming's direction then. Did you perhaps see it as a shift toward half-baked 3D and an abandonment of traditional 2D-playing games / 2D artwork?

That is a part of it, but not only.
Indeed, I do come from the 2D area (arcade, consoles and computers) and my favorite machine remains the Super Famicom. This is the only machine I ever had an actual dream about.

When the Saturn, PlayStation and N64 came, I wasn't much thrilled. Everyone was on these and you bet I had my hands on them as soon as they were released in Japan. But that didn't click. Sure, on one hand, the 3D has always been more of a curiosity to me than anything else. But, on the other hand, 3D wasn't that bad in the beginning. Games were more than playable and I actually enjoyed many 3D games.
The thing is, they lacked depth. They were more elaborate demos, like gimmicks (pun intended), than real games that would embark you on a real journey with a real challenge.
While the Saturn was a pure gamer console, the PlayStation was already establishing casual gaming as the norm. And the N64 was more Nintendo than ever: you bought it for Mario 64/Kart and Zelda, and that was basically it. But there was no dream to it. Zelda on the Super Famicom had the perfect ending of an epic journey, while Zelda on the N64 was just a game. Mario 64 was fun, but, well, as of 2022, 3D controls still aren't as fluent as 2D controls, ie. we still don't do better than Mario 64.
So, yeah, that generation didn't impress much, while Sonic Adventure on the Dreamcast made me think (although, the game is not quite the promised adventure, far from it) and Sakura Taisen 3 made me buy a Dreamcast and got me back in the game, because it was the first game in a very long time, that would leave a bitter taste in your mouth, the same taste you get when you finish reading a good book and you are sad to let the characters and their universe go. The yummy bitter taste.

That is a part of it, but not only.
Indeed, I do come from the 2D area (arcade, consoles and computers) and my favorite machine remains the Super Famicom. This is the only machine I ever had an actual dream about.

When the Saturn, PlayStation and N64 came, I wasn't much thrilled. Everyone was on these and you bet I had my hands on them as soon as they were released in Japan. But that didn't click. Sure, on one hand, the 3D has always been more of a curiosity to me than anything else. But, on the other hand, 3D wasn't that bad in the beginning. Games were more than playable and I actually enjoyed many 3D games.
The thing is, they lacked depth. They were more elaborate demos, like gimmicks (pun intended), than real games that would embark you on a real journey with a real challenge.
While the Saturn was a pure gamer console, the PlayStation was already establishing casual gaming as the norm. And the N64 was more Nintendo than ever: you bought it for Mario 64/Kart and Zelda, and that was basically it. But there was no dream to it. Zelda on the Super Famicom had the perfect ending of an epic journey, while Zelda on the N64 was just a game. Mario 64 was fun, but, well, as of 2022, 3D controls still aren't as fluent as 2D controls, ie. we still don't do better than Mario 64.
So, yeah, that generation didn't impress much, while Sonic Adventure on the Dreamcast made me think (although, the game is not quite the promised adventure, far from it) and Sakura Taisen 3 made me buy a Dreamcast and got me back in the game, because it was the first game in a very long time, that would leave a bitter taste in your mouth, the same taste you get when you finish reading a good book and you are sad to let the characters and their universe go. The yummy bitter taste.

Think we lived in a different universe back then. Wouldn't want to miss those late 90s for one sec. Golden Eye, Wipeout, Mario 64, Great Zelda's, Blast Corps, D, Silent Hill, Gran Turismo, Resident Evil, Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater, Pokémon Red/Blue, Quake, Final Fantasy VII, VIII and IX, Half-Life, Earthworm Jim, Doom, Grim Fandango, Super Smash Bros., Metal Gear Solid, Story of Thor 2, Clockwork Knight, Time Crisis, Virtua Cop, Virtua Fighter 2, Driver, Spyro The Dragon, Sega Rally Championship, Tomb Raider, Oddworld, Crash Bandicoot, Panzer Dragoon Saga, Nights Into Dreams, Twisted Metal... I really really loved these games and those are just a few.

I can see both sides of this. I also lived through the 90s and I saw everyone lose their minds over 3D graphics to the point where people were convinced games with pre-rendered 3D like Donkey Kong Country or psuedo-3d isometric views like Sonic 3D Blast were inherently better than 2D games. There's a lot of 3D games that came out of the mid to late 90s that absolutely would have been better if they had been 2D, and a lot of really fantastic games made in that era that were unjustly shunned because they weren't 3D. We also saw a lot of games like Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time that were groundbreaking for the time but have obvious shortcomings in retrospect. It was even worse later, with games like Mario Sunshine and Sonic Adventure that very much tried to act like they had 3D figured out but were often miserable to control. We spent years playing deeply flawed 3D games and had to turn to handhelds like the GBA as the only place where decent 2D games could still be found.

Thankfully, as 3D games got better we realized there was still a lot that 2D games had to offer and now we live in a world where a 2D game like Stardew Valley could come out and be a smash hit beyond any expectation, with no hint of whining over how it would have been better in 3D.

I want N64 not only because it's one of my favorite consoles, but it's the last console that feels "necessary" for MiSTer for lack of a better term. If we can do Saturn, and PSX in FPGA, it feels weird to not have N64 since it'd round out the entire generation. Obviously, getting an FPGA board that could run N64 also means getting a board that could run DS, but that's a 7th gen console. I view the MiSTer as the definitive way to play games from 20th century hardware (sans Dreamcast since it's 6th gen anyways), so N64 would be the last piece of hardware to round out that dream

dmckean wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 6:49 pm Dreamcast and PS2 are too powerful, it would take a medium sized team of developers and a very large amount of logic elements. More realistic things to expect in the future with more capable hardware would be a Pentium, Nintendo DS (not 3DS though), N64, and more arcade hardware from 1995-1996.

I think even a Pentium is very unlikely. Implementing out-of-order execution on an FPGA would be extraordinarily difficult. Remember, the real thing took a huge team a couple of years to do, and an FPGA reimplementation probably wouldn't be any easier.

Even if the FPGA on the Mister were infinite in both capacity and speed, doing a Pentium correctly would be a massive project.

I have all three major 5th gen consoles (PSX, Saturn, N64)... and the N64 is just there as a collectable. There's no reason for me to actually spend real time playing it, especially since the only games I really enjoy there are Beetle Adventure Racing, Mario Kart 64, F-Zero X, and Densha de Go 64.

This is different on the PSX and Saturn, both of whom I use on a regular basis simply because of their superior software library.

Nothing in the N64 library can compete against titles such as FF7, FF Tactics, Virtua Fighter 2, Tekken 3, Sega Rally, and Ridge Racer.

Golden eye would be nice, still waiting for the re-release on Xbox.

retro wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 4:09 amNothing in the N64 library can compete against titles such as FF7, FF Tactics, Virtua Fighter 2, Tekken 3, Sega Rally, and Ridge Racer.

Nothing in the PSX library can compete against titles such as Ocarina of Time, Super Mario 64, Majora's Mask, Banjo-Kazooie, Perfect Dark, Starfox 64, Paper Mario, Super Smash Brothers, Rogue Squadron, Goldeneye 007, F-Zero-X, Mario Kart 64, Diddy Kong Racing, Conker Bad Fur Day, 1080 Snowboard, WaveRace 64, Banjo-Tooie.

ALL masterpieces. ALL N64 exclusives.

retro wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 4:09 am Nothing in the N64 library can compete against titles such as FF7, FF Tactics, Virtua Fighter 2, Tekken 3, Sega Rally, and Ridge Racer.

I'm a bit of a Sony fanboi, what with PSX being my first console, but I couldn't disagree more. I had N64 briefly in the early 00s and only played the few "big" games. Never emulated it since then but I have just got a real one again, with a flashcart, and I'm quite amazed by its library. It's not even the 10/10 timeless classics such as Zelda or Mario, which not only compete but probably beat hands down most of PSX's offerings, but there are heaps of lesser known yet still interesting, quality titles such as Blast Corps, Space Station Silicon Valley, or AeroFighters Assault.

It's completely fine to dislike the N64. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. But to say it "doesn't have any games" is pretty ludicrous. N64's library is very polarizing because it all comes down to the genres you like. If you like RPGs and fighting games, you're kinda out of luck on the N64 outside of Smash and Paper Mario. However, if you like 3D platformers, 1st person shooters, and racing games, then N64 is an incredible console. Those happen to be 3 of my favorite genres. Also, if you couldn't tell by my username, Rare is my favorite gaming company ever, and this is their golden age, so that's something worth celebrating and preserving tbh.

I'm going to call it as it is too. I think some hate N64 since it can't run on MiSTer. Since MiSTer can't run it, then let's just say the console is garbage to justify why not having it is okay. That's a silly take if that's the motivation by some. I'm not going to say the DS sucks since the MiSTer can't run it. That's childish.

virtuali wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 8:52 am

retro wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 4:09 amNothing in the N64 library can compete against titles such as FF7, FF Tactics, Virtua Fighter 2, Tekken 3, Sega Rally, and Ridge Racer.

Nothing in the PSX library can compete against titles such as Ocarina of Time, Super Mario 64, Majora's Mask, Banjo-Kazooie, Perfect Dark, Starfox 64, Paper Mario, Super Smash Brothers, Rogue Squadron, Goldeneye 007, F-Zero-X, Mario Kart 64, Diddy Kong Racing, Conker Bad Fur Day, 1080 Snowboard, WaveRace 64, Banjo-Tooie.

ALL masterpieces. ALL N64 exclusives.

And one thing that people often neglect to mention in regards to the N64 is how amazing it was to have 4-player multiplayer in so many of those games. Having 4 controller ports built in out of the box was a blessing. Go ahead and name me 4-player PSX games that can rival with GoldenEye, WCW/NWO Revenge, Smash Bros, Perfect Dark, Mario Kart 64, Mario Party, Diddy Kong Racing, Turok Rage Wars, Conker, etc. I didn't know a single PSX owner that even had a multitap and very few games even bothered to support it.

This is true. N64 is the undisputed console king of local multiplayer. If you grew up with a couple brothers playing Smash, Mario Party, GoldenEye, Conker, Perfect Dark etc. back in the day, nothing else compares to that amount of fun. The closest local multiplayer experience that captures the fun of the N64 is Guitar Hero/Rock Band.

KremlingKuthroat19 wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 12:31 pm I'm going to call it as it is too. I think some hate N64 since it can't run on MiSTer. Since MiSTer can't run it, then let's just say the console is garbage to justify why not having it is okay. That's a silly take if that's the motivation by some. I'm not going to say the DS sucks since the MiSTer can't run it. That's childish.

It's because a few here treat the Mister like a cult, and not only hatred towards hardware that the Mister doesn't emulate, but hatred towards software emulation, the Raspberry Pi, Chinese handhelds, etc...
I agree with you about the N64, it was a wonderful console, and (in my own personal opinion) it was Nintendo's last true console - I didn't mind the Gamecube, but it went downhill after that.

The N64 has a lot of great and unique games. Yes, graphically they look rough today and many are first party titles, but it still has a healthy library of titles worth checking out.

Unlike say the Virtual Boy where most of the games could have been Game Boy color titles instead (offering nothing new other than the 3d gimmick).

virtuali wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 8:52 am Nothing in the PSX library can compete against titles such as Ocarina of Time, Super Mario 64, Majora's Mask, Banjo-Kazooie, Perfect Dark, Starfox 64, Paper Mario, Super Smash Brothers, Rogue Squadron, Goldeneye 007, F-Zero-X, Mario Kart 64, Diddy Kong Racing, Conker Bad Fur Day, 1080 Snowboard, WaveRace 64, Banjo-Tooie.

ALL masterpieces. ALL N64 exclusives.

I did say I enjoy Mario Kart 64 and F-Zero X

I have to agree with you regarding Rogue Squadron and WaveRace 64, completely forgot about how great they were.

I guess I should add Mace: The Dark Age, Killer Instinct Gold, and Cruis'n World to list of fun N64 games I still enjoy.

Ocarina of Time, Super Mario 64, and Majora's Mask were better on 3DS IMO.

I couldn't go back to the original version of GoldenEye after getting my hands on the leaked Xbox 360 remaster. The difference is night and day.

And I prefer to play the Rare games on Xbox 360 as well, since the framerate is slightly improved and controls are better.

And to everyone else who were offended by my post... I do apologize. It was not meant to be a burn on the N64, just a statement that it's software library is weaker than its competitors.

Perhaps I do not have childhood nostalgia for it, as I did not grow up with it and only got it AFTER I had the Wii, Wii U, and GameCube.

As someone who grew up with the N64 and got one when I was 6, it was mindblowing the jump between the SNES entries in series and the N64 entries. Super Mario 64, Ocarina of Time, Mario Kart 64, F-Zero X were such huge leaps forward for their respective genres. Looking back in hindsight, it's easy to say the graphics suck and the controller is trash, which I do agree with. However, 3D was brand new and controllers weren't really standardized as dual sticks until the 6th gen. The PS1 didn't even ship with analog sticks as a 3D console which is funny to think about. I do think N64 graphics have a great charm to them that's similar to the Atari 2600.

retro wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 1:27 amIt was not meant to be a burn on the N64, just a statement that it's software library is weaker than its competitors.

Well, the problem is, the statement is wrong or, at least, is not shared by the majority of the community.

Everybody agrees the PSX "won" the 5th generation console war, especially because it launched Sony as a major player. But Nintendo was still highly profitable with the N64. Other competitors ? Saturn ? N64 had way better and varied software than the Saturn, in addition to have outsold it more than 3:1.

At the same time, most users agree the N64 software library was the strongest one, PSX had an huge number of titles, but the average quality was lower, and if you only look at the "masterpieces", N64 had more of them.

The PSX was such a huge success and had such a massive library that it has 200+ really great titles. The N64 has a great library too but it's much, much smaller.

Any platform with so many first party Nintendo games is worth preserving properly, even Virtual Boy.

I stand by my belief that the N64 and Neo Geo AES are the 2 consoles with the highest quality library. Sure there are stinkers like Superman 64 and Carmageddon 64, but overall the N64 has a stellar lineup. It's just a very small lineup in comparison to the PS1 and even the Saturn if you include all the Japanese titles.

Btw, no one should have to justify the N64 for being "worthy of preservation". Of course it's worthy of preservation. All consoles are. The only consoles you can say may be questionable if they're worthy of preservation or not are fringe consoles like the BBC Bridge Companion or the Bandai Playdia. Essentially, hardware that maybe doesn't even qualify as consoles.

Yeah it's nonsense to say the N64 isn't worth preserving. Some of the best examples of early 3D games are on the 64 and they deserve to be remembered and enjoyed by future generations. This is a Nintendo home console we're talking about, not the Tiger R-Zone.

virtuali wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 8:52 am

retro wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 4:09 amNothing in the N64 library can compete against titles such as FF7, FF Tactics, Virtua Fighter 2, Tekken 3, Sega Rally, and Ridge Racer.

Nothing in the PSX library can compete against titles such as Ocarina of Time, Super Mario 64, Majora's Mask, Banjo-Kazooie, Perfect Dark, Starfox 64, Paper Mario, Super Smash Brothers, Rogue Squadron, Goldeneye 007, F-Zero-X, Mario Kart 64, Diddy Kong Racing, Conker Bad Fur Day, 1080 Snowboard, WaveRace 64, Banjo-Tooie.

ALL masterpieces. ALL N64 exclusives.

Hmm nah. Mario 64 stands alone perhaps but Playstation had games that changed the direction of video games to this day.

Some of those N64 games you mentioned are pretty mediocre.

I'd say that the average quality of N64 games was substantially higher, as there was an awful lot of shovelware on the PSX in particular, but there was such an avalanche of titles for the PSX that we ended up with a bunch of really great stuff on each. I'd call N64 *mostly* better in terms of interface. A lot of the early PSX games are very, very painful for a modern gamer, because they didn't end up defining the interface standards the way Nintendo did. Mario 64 is still perfectly playable to pretty much anyone who picks up the controller, although the camera controls are terrible. But then look at, say, Tecmo's Deception on the PSX, which was fantastic at the time. I was kind of horrified by the controls when I went back to it a number of years ago.

The Dreamcast kinda got left out, though. I think maybe that had the best hardware of the three, and you could drive a VGA monitor with it natively, so it was just outstanding on a hardware level, but I only remember Crazy Taxi and Skies of Arcadia as being really fun to play. Between the low console sales and the different approach to 3D (it used tile rendering), not very many devs risked writing for it.

city909 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 03, 2022 11:58 pmHmm nah. Mario 64 stands alone perhaps but Playstation had games that changed the direction of video games to this day.

While it was Mario 64 in fact that changed the direction of video games to this day, it's not by any means an exception in the N64 software library. Saying there's nothing else other than Mario 64, it's just as wrong as saying there's nothing else on PSX besides MGS. A fanboy trope.

Some of those N64 games you mentioned are pretty mediocre.

The obviously aren't, and they are all universally recognized to be amongst the best games of that era, and they are still quite playable today. The PSX had so *many* games, it was inevitable it also had lots of great games, but there were lots of fluff and fillers. In fact, with about 4000 games released compared to less than 400 on N64, *most* of the games on PSX were basically crap.