MiSTer FPGA Forum

2nd that, super happy to see that you'll be starting on another core. Besten Dank!

"The burnt child fears the fire" Sounds like another clue! Eventually it will lead to the National Treasure. (just kidding)
I am looking forward to the hopefully eventual big reveal!

Well, this time, it's just a german saying

I take that as confirmation that it's not a DS core at least.

gamepark32

the_importer wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:32 pm

12characters wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:04 pm

My first thoughts were directed towards 3DO or Virtual Boy. However, based on the clues that he has given on his Patreon page (including a screenshot), my bet is now on a different beast.

Robert Peip wrote:

With this in place, I'm now able to try and run all kind of homebrew or original software. While most fully-fledged programs won't do anything yet, being able to run testprograms for all the subsystems already opens up a large field of things to work on and validate.
....
I can tell you it's using different width for different subsystems

Do the math!

But we already have others working on a Jaguar core already, seems like a waste.

Well we had a similar situation with the PSX core, it was in work for years, Robert jumped in and basically produced a well working core within a year.. the other one, was it ever finished?
Fine if a well working Jag core comes out before he is done, but he is definitely the man who can push out such a core in record time!

mario64 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:58 am

I honestly hope it isn't Virtual Boy. I have a consolized VB and it just isn't the same. These games were designed to be played in 3D. Playing them in 2D on a TV is not very fun imo.

Virtual boy screams for an emulator and a VR or AR headset...
I guess the perfect combo atm would be a virtual boy emu and an nreal air...

I was hoping for a Yamaha DX7 core, an Apple IIgs core, a color Mac core, a 286, 386 and 486 core, a Star Wars arcade core, a Star Wars Trilogy Arcade core, an Elevator Action core, and if he can swing it within a few weeks, an N64 core.

thorr wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:00 pm

I was hoping for a Yamaha DX7 core, an Apple IIgs core, a color Mac core, a 286, 386 and 486 core, a Star Wars arcade core, a Star Wars Trilogy Arcade core, an Elevator Action core, and if he can swing it within a few weeks, an N64 core.

Elevator Action (Taito System SJ) is already under development though I don´t remember the author now. Robert has said several times he dislikes arcades so I bet for a console like 3DO or Jaguar -I would love PGM but IS an arcade board similar to Neogeo MVS-.

I wish your list come to reality some day.

Hodor wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:15 pm

Elevator Action (Taito System SJ) is already under development though I don´t remember the author now. Robert has said several times he dislikes arcades so I bet for a console like 3DO or Jaguar -I would love PGM but IS an arcade board similar to Neogeo MVS-.

I wish your list come to reality some day.

Thanks! I had heard about Elevator Action also, which is exciting, but until we have it, it doesn't exist to me. Apple IIgs was supposed to be coming as well, but I haven't heard anything about it in ages. I think maybe color Mac too. I would just like to someday have my list complete (except the N64 which probably will never come). I am in no particular hurry though.

thorr wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:46 pm

Hodor wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:15 pm

Elevator Action (Taito System SJ) is already under development though I don´t remember the author now. Robert has said several times he dislikes arcades so I bet for a console like 3DO or Jaguar -I would love PGM but IS an arcade board similar to Neogeo MVS-.

I wish your list come to reality some day.

Thanks! I had heard about Elevator Action also, which is exciting, but until we have it, it doesn't exist to me. Apple IIgs was supposed to be coming as well, but I haven't heard anything about it in ages. I think maybe color Mac too. I would just like to someday have my list complete (except the N64 which probably will never come). I am in no particular hurry though.

While not 100% the same, the NES has an almost arcade perfect port of the game. So if you want to play it on the mister now, you can use the Nes core

IIRC, the Elevator Action board is super complex, with a weird custom CPU that nobody else really used. I wouldn't expect that one soon.

I might, however, be mixing that up with Paperboy, which is another really oddball board.

werpu wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:11 pm

Well we had a similar situation with the PSX core, it was in work for years, Robert jumped in and basically produced a well working core within a year.. the other one, was it ever finished?
Fine if a well working Jag core comes out before he is done, but he is definitely the man who can push out such a core in record time!

Euh? No we didn't. Some person was working on a non-MiSTer core, abandoned it, then Robert started his core from scratch.

werpu wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:13 pm

While not 100% the same, the NES has an almost arcade perfect port of the game. So if you want to play it on the mister now, you can use the Nes core

Thanks! Yes, I had it as a kid (still do actually), and I do in fact play it all the time on the MiSTer. I love the game and it is a really great port on the NES!

werpu wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:15 pm

Virtual boy screams for an emulator and a VR or AR headset...
I guess the perfect combo atm would be a virtual boy emu and an nreal air...

There is in fact a decent VB emulator for the Oculus Quest.

werpu wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:13 pm

thorr wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:46 pm

Hodor wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:15 pm

Elevator Action (Taito System SJ) is already under development though I don´t remember the author now. Robert has said several times he dislikes arcades so I bet for a console like 3DO or Jaguar -I would love PGM but IS an arcade board similar to Neogeo MVS-.

I wish your list come to reality some day.

Thanks! I had heard about Elevator Action also, which is exciting, but until we have it, it doesn't exist to me. Apple IIgs was supposed to be coming as well, but I haven't heard anything about it in ages. I think maybe color Mac too. I would just like to someday have my list complete (except the N64 which probably will never come). I am in no particular hurry though.

While not 100% the same, the NES has an almost arcade perfect port of the game. So if you want to play it on the mister now, you can use the Nes core

I agree. It is a great port. Rolling Thunder is another great NES port as well.

the_importer wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 1:27 am

werpu wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:11 pm

Well we had a similar situation with the PSX core, it was in work for years, Robert jumped in and basically produced a well working core within a year.. the other one, was it ever finished?
Fine if a well working Jag core comes out before he is done, but he is definitely the man who can push out such a core in record time!

Euh? No we didn't. Some person was working on a non-MiSTer core, abandoned it, then Robert started his core from scratch.

Hmm, I’m pretty sure that guy had come out and said he’d be porting the core to MiSTer at some point, so his was the core everyone was expecting would come to MiSTer at first. At least, I think….maybe I’m misremembering.

ItalianGrandma wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:07 am

the_importer wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 1:27 am

werpu wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:11 pm

Well we had a similar situation with the PSX core, it was in work for years, Robert jumped in and basically produced a well working core within a year.. the other one, was it ever finished?
Fine if a well working Jag core comes out before he is done, but he is definitely the man who can push out such a core in record time!

Euh? No we didn't. Some person was working on a non-MiSTer core, abandoned it, then Robert started his core from scratch.

Hmm, I’m pretty sure that guy had come out and said he’d be porting the core to MiSTer at some point, so his was the core everyone was expecting would come to MiSTer at first. At least, I think….maybe I’m misremembering.

You're remembering correctly. Progress on that core was slow and when he tried to recruit help it blew up into a situation where he abandoned the core. It was at that point Robert stepped in and started work on his own core. The other core was still in a relatively early state and only loaded a handlful of games.

dmckean wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:58 am

ItalianGrandma wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:07 am

the_importer wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 1:27 am

Euh? No we didn't. Some person was working on a non-MiSTer core, abandoned it, then Robert started his core from scratch.

Hmm, I’m pretty sure that guy had come out and said he’d be porting the core to MiSTer at some point, so his was the core everyone was expecting would come to MiSTer at first. At least, I think….maybe I’m misremembering.

You're remembering correctly. Progress on that core was slow and when he tried to recruit help it blew up into a situation where he abandoned the core. It was at that point Robert stepped in and started work on his own core. The other core was still in a relatively early state and only loaded a handlful of games.

With all do respect to the person who was working on the original core, it didn't get anywhere while on the other hand, Robert managed to pull nothing less than a miracle in 2 years.

neogeo81 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:19 am

mercuryshadow09 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:51 am

Armakuni wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 8:29 pm

My money would be on 3DO

N64 is not possible on the DE-10

There is not much else it could be really apart from Jaguar....

Everybody also said 32X wasn't possible, yet here we are.

you are really comparing the complexity of the N64 and RAM and BUS speed with a 32X? Lol, you're funny.

Am I a developer?

FM Towns Marty, PC-FX or some arcade system? Wouldn’t a 2D games only DS work? I just want to play those Castlevania games, Contra 4 and Aliens Infestation on the big screen.

Most "2D" DS titles use the 3D engine to show more sprites or even just use it as additional 5th background layer.
Only very few titles don't use 3D at all. Easily < 10%

DS on MiSTer would only work in a "inaccurate" way as the memory doesn't fit in the FPGA.
Maybe it's good enough with best effort drawing and dual sdram...no idea.
That said, it's not completly impossible on MiSTer, but impossible to have it 100% accurate on MiSTer.
Maybe someday when nothing else is left.

FPGAzumSpass wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 2:37 pm

Most "2D" DS titles use the 3D engine to show more sprites or even just use it as additional 5th background layer.
Only very few titles don't use 3D at all. Easily < 10%

DS on MiSTer would only work in a "inaccurate" way as the memory doesn't fit in the FPGA.
Maybe it's good enough with best effort drawing and dual sdram...no idea.
That said, it's not completly impossible on MiSTer, but impossible to have it 100% accurate on MiSTer.
Maybe someday when nothing else is left.

I rather better not have it then have it not accurate. That would make the whole point of FPGA based emulation obsolete.

So when is the Jaguar core coming?

neogeo81 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 2:56 pm

I rather better not have it then have it not accurate. That would make the whole point of FPGA based emulation obsolete.

I get what you are saying, but at the same time, to me it would depend on what is inaccurate about it. If you can't tell the difference other than the author telling you that it is different, it might be good enough. I would still rather have FPGA emulation with zero lag, than a PC based emulator with lag.

I don't like the 100% perfect or nothing standpoint, especially for newer systems, because it means we would not have any "more modern" system on the DE10-Nano hardware.
Some MiSTer cores have some shortcomings below the surface already and i would say they are not critical for 99% of the games and users.

E.g:

• GBA uses a trick in that it runs the whole system faster if the last instructions where slow due to the SDRAM latency (catches up on original timing after few cycles)
• WonderSwan uses different clocks for the CPU than original system, because the single cycle response of the original V30MZ cpu would not work in the same clock domain as SDRAM(still fulfills original timing)
• PSX cannot hold the original GPU timings as we must use DDR3 for VRAM, which can be busy by scaler or HPS
• AO486 has completly different timings than any original CPU of that time and still is useful

Sure, a DS core would have harsh shortcomings, but likely would still be much more accurate than the best software emulators currently available.
And i can imagine some other newer systems where we either have 95% accuracy or no core at all.

Also keep in mind that these shortcoming are often bound by the hardware only, so e.g. a potential DS core could not be fully accurate on the DE10-Nano, but when going to another board(faster FPGA, more internal RAM) in the future, it could be accurate without rewriting too much of the core.

It's like writing a software emulator that is fully accurate but cannot run on modern machines and has a switch to trade some accuracy against speed. It would still be VERY valueable.

An NDS MiSTer core would be a terribly hobbled experience regardless of accuracy by virtue of its most unique games being designed around a small resistive screen input. Efforts to 'consolise' DS hardware for play on a HDTV would be similarly cursed.

My bet goes for Apple Pippin

i would very much welcome a NDS core on the MiSTer. the DS has a huge library, and im sure there could be a simple way to open the sub screen with a button press, or opt to have it side-by-side like the 2P GBA core. even the "screen touching" could be controllable with a right analog stick or playstation touchpad.

as Robert said, there are some inaccurate things that are worked around in cores already. and if were talking about a 2DS core for the MiSTer that had imperceptible inaccuracies to the human eye, ill take it!

FPGAzumSpass wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 6:05 am

I don't like the 100% perfect or nothing standpoint, especially for newer systems, because it means we would not have any "more modern" system on the DE10-Nano hardware.
Some MiSTer cores have some shortcomings below the surface already and i would say they are not critical for 99% of the games and users.

E.g:

• GBA uses a trick in that it runs the whole system faster if the last instructions where slow due to the SDRAM latency (catches up on original timing after few cycles)
• WonderSwan uses different clocks for the CPU than original system, because the single cycle response of the original V30MZ cpu would not work in the same clock domain as SDRAM(still fulfills original timing)
• PSX cannot hold the original GPU timings as we must use DDR3 for VRAM, which can be busy by scaler or HPS
• AO486 has completly different timings than any original CPU of that time and still is useful

Sure, a DS core would have harsh shortcomings, but likely would still be much more accurate than the best software emulators currently available.
And i can imagine some other newer systems where we either have 95% accuracy or no core at all.

Also keep in mind that these shortcoming are often bound by the hardware only, so e.g. a potential DS core could not be fully accurate on the DE10-Nano, but when going to another board(faster FPGA, more internal RAM) in the future, it could be accurate without rewriting too much of the core.

It's like writing a software emulator that is fully accurate but cannot run on modern machines and has a switch to trade some accuracy against speed. It would still be VERY valueable.

But those are minor things that the player itself does not see, feel or notice in any way. On the DS side, if you only can play 2D games accurate and some not at all is far bigger issue than what you explained. And this is what i meant.

Sorry, than we just talked about different things.

DS needs more memory than is available in the DE10-Nano FPGA, mostly for 2D and 3D rendering so to make it work this Memory has to be outside (sdram, ddr3).
The bandwidth could be enough, but the latency is higher.
To compensate, the memory would have to be read in bursts, e.g. with rendering the 2D in scanlines instead of pixel accurate timings.
The end result is likely the same, unless a game really "races the beam", which is uncommon for this era but not impossible.
Also games that use the full memory bandwith, might not draw fast enough? But that's hard to guess at this point.

So in short: GPU would not be cycle accurate, rest of the system could be. But it should be feature complete with 3D.
Well, that is if the logic fits into, which is still in question

At the time i worked on GBA/DS i still was missing experience on how to handle different things i learned over the years. Today i would do several things different.