MiSTer FPGA Forum

Bristles wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 1:28 pm

I grew up with PAL, so why would I care about NTSC ?

In the end it is completely subjective. As someone who grew up with a PAL 2600 I see where you are coming from. I think if you never played any N64 games the NTSC version is the better choice but if your muscle memory is tied to the PAL version then maybe this version is better.
As somebody who played not many N64 games back in the day (had a PSX) I prefer the NTSC versions because many games back in the day had already low frame rates and the NTSC versions doesn't stutter as hard as the PAL versions.

But if I had played Super Mario 64 for hours and hours on a PAL TV maybe it would be different.

Bristles wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 1:28 pm

I grew up with PAL, so why would I care about NTSC ?

Most games are probably designed for 60Hz so they are the intended experience.

antibolo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 6:39 pm

Bristles wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 1:28 pm

I grew up with PAL, so why would I care about NTSC ?

Most games are probably designed for 60Hz so they are the intended experience.

Rubbish. If you grew up with PAL, then this "Experience" BS is just that. BS.
And I genuinely couldn't give a crap about "intended experience", and it's a bit rich for someone on THIS forum to say this. I mean, IF you REALLY want the "intended experience" then you would be playing these games on REAL hardware - THAT is the "intended experience", not a Mister.

Bristles wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 7:21 pm

antibolo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 6:39 pm

Bristles wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 1:28 pm

I grew up with PAL, so why would I care about NTSC ?

Most games are probably designed for 60Hz so they are the intended experience.

Rubbish. If you grew up with PAL, then this "Experience" BS is just that. BS.
And I genuinely couldn't give a crap about "intended experience", and it's a bit rich for someone on THIS forum to say this. I mean, IF you REALLY want the "intended experience" then you would be playing these games on REAL hardware - THAT is the "intended experience", not a Mister.

This is a weird counter-argument to make on a FPGA emulation forum (we're all striving for the most accurate reproduction outside of real hardware) but ok.

In any case there's absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying the PAL versions you grew up with. More power to you. And I'm 100% in favour of PAL support, if only for the sake of preservation at the very least.

I'm just stating facts here, which shouldn't be that controversial. Many commercial emulation releases lately (ie. Nintendo's classic consoles and NSO service) have been using the NTSC versions even in PAL territories, for entirely valid reasons that many PAL denizens agree with. (Conversely when Sony released the PlayStation Mini and it used PAL versions, there was a significant backlash.)

Weird counter argument ?
You said 60hz was the intended experience, yet you don't know that for fact. But here IS a fact, the "Intended experience" was on REAL hardware, connected to a CRT - that is FACT. Not one single dev, in the 90s, would have developed a game for future LCD Tech, or FPGA tech, everything was developed for the tech of that time period.
So no, you are not stating facts, you didn't know any dev, or studio from that period. Yes, devs would have written games for the biggest markets, but that doesn't mean it was their intended experience. PAL has a superior picture quality to NTSC, that is fact. 625 lines vs 525 lines doesn't lie. PAL had higher bandwidth - both video and sound, larger active lines (576 vs 480), and we also had better tech - full RGB SCART years before NTSC got component RGB. These are facts.

About 100 of those extra PAL lines were generally black from the letterboxing!

I hated slowed down letterboxed versions of UK consoles so imported up until the Dreamcast which finally gave us 60hz PAL loveliness.

I remember the first time I played in a US SNES, I couldn’t believe I’d be playing borked versions for years. It was a real game changer so to speak.

I’m sure there were a few PAL games which were optimised well, but they were few and far between.

Bristles wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 10:06 pm

Weird counter argument ?
You said 60hz was the intended experience, yet you don't know that for fact. But here IS a fact, the "Intended experience" was on REAL hardware, connected to a CRT - that is FACT. Not one single dev, in the 90s, would have developed a game for future LCD Tech, or FPGA tech, everything was developed for the tech of that time period.
So no, you are not stating facts, you didn't know any dev, or studio from that period. Yes, devs would have written games for the biggest markets, but that doesn't mean it was their intended experience. PAL has a superior picture quality to NTSC, that is fact. 625 lines vs 525 lines doesn't lie. PAL had higher bandwidth - both video and sound, larger active lines (576 vs 480), and we also had better tech - full RGB SCART years before NTSC got component RGB. These are facts.

But all of this doesn’t change the fact that most games for Japanese-originating consoles were designed for 60Hz and 525 lines, with varying levels of quality in their conversions to 50Hz and 625 lines (that is if they even bothered to convert them at all, and not just left them running slower and letterboxed).

You can deny this all you want but this is a very well known issue, I am not just randomly making this up out of thin air.

The PAL version might still be preferable for other reasons, such as wider language support, having less bugs due to being a later release, or just being simply what you are used to. And that’s fine. There are no wrong answers, and options are good.

Please be nice to each other, everyone might decide what they like more.

Is 60hz objective better? yes
Does every NTSC game run at steady 30fps? no

Are 288 pixel height better then 240? yes
Does every PAL game use that? no

In the end it's all just subjective.
Some from Europe went for NTSC versions as early as they could due to the framerate, some never cared about it.

I just switch based on what i want to play: text heavy OoT at 17 or 20fps? The answer is clear for me, the game worked great at 17fps 20 years ago, it still does today.
Fast paced WaveRace? Give me more fps!

That's the great thing about MiSTer: you can decide and I'm really happy i got both console types with their correct clock frequency supported.
You don't even have to switch between, just select the game, thanks to the work of Markun and others.

As a general rule, any game that I had that was PAL I will grab the rom or CHD and place on the microSD as I have managed to extract the save file and using site such as https://tcrf.net/ decide whether to "upgrade" to NTSC. For example on the PS1 core I will always stick with PAL for Gran Turismo as my save file has all the cars my housemates and I got back in our university halls of residence in '98 (good times!) and it was also heavily optimised. I have no problems switching to the NTSC version of Tekken 2 as the speed difference is an improvement worth losing my save file for. The decision comes to titles that have quality of life improvements and extras in the PAL version but is stuck on 50Hz e.g. Metal Gear Solid...

For me, this decision largely only affects the CD-ROM based cores with large libraries (PSX, Saturn, MegaCD). With the 1TB microSD there's enough space for complete ROM sets for cart based systems and smaller CHD sets such as the NeoGeo CD.

Bristles wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 10:06 pm

So no, you are not stating facts, you didn't know any dev, or studio from that period.

For what it's worth, I work at Rare, and I'm not even sure I could get answers that'll satisfy people in here

Just enjoy what you enjoy!

MrSniffles wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2023 8:10 am

For what it's worth, I work at Rare, and I'm not even sure I could get answers that'll satisfy people in here

I played Goldeneye 007 USA on original N64 hardware with an Everdrive and didnt notice any speed difference to the PAL version I bought back in '99.

chunky_tesco wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2023 8:54 am

MrSniffles wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2023 8:10 am

For what it's worth, I work at Rare, and I'm not even sure I could get answers that'll satisfy people in here

I played Goldeneye 007 USA on original N64 hardware with an Everdrive and didnt notice any speed difference to the PAL version I bought back in '99.

When the N64 you used was a PAL model it doesnt matter if you use the NTSC or PAL rom, the game will still be tied to the 50Hz PAL refresh rate making it run as fast as the PAL version but having the disadvantage of running in a lower resolution because PAL Goldeneye had a slightly higher resoulution (making it run a bit choppier in combination with the lower refresh rate).

Chris23235 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2023 10:04 am

When the N64 you used was a PAL model it doesnt matter if you use the NTSC or PAL rom, the game will still be tied to the 50Hz PAL refresh rate making it run as fast as the PAL version but having the disadvantage of running in a lower resolution because PAL Goldeneye had a slightly higher resoulution (making it run a bit choppier in combination with the lower refresh rate).

I thought the PAL N64 supports both 50 and 60Hz

https://www.reddit.com/r/n64/comments/v ... hcart_run/

akeley wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 1:44 pm

The only "correct" answer here is "whichever feels better to you."

Doubling down on this answer. If you grew up with PAL then that's what you remember!

That said, I'm going to experiment with both as time goes on. I think there was an example with the PlayStation where Gran Turismo runs better in PAL than NTSC, but my source for that is a bit shaky (YouTube)

And as for those who didn't have an N64, the world is your oyster.

MrSniffles wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2023 8:10 am

Bristles wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 10:06 pm

So no, you are not stating facts, you didn't know any dev, or studio from that period.

For what it's worth, I work at Rare, and I'm not even sure I could get answers that'll satisfy people in here

Just enjoy what you enjoy!

You work for Rare ?
Then I take my hat off to you, for Rare was always one of my fave devs - especially since they started off as Ultimate Play the Game, making superb ZX Spectrum titles.

chunky_tesco wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2023 10:50 am

Chris23235 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2023 10:04 am

When the N64 you used was a PAL model it doesnt matter if you use the NTSC or PAL rom, the game will still be tied to the 50Hz PAL refresh rate making it run as fast as the PAL version but having the disadvantage of running in a lower resolution because PAL Goldeneye had a slightly higher resoulution (making it run a bit choppier in combination with the lower refresh rate).

I thought the PAL N64 supports both 50 and 60Hz

https://www.reddit.com/r/n64/comments/v ... hcart_run/

I hadn't heard this before, if it is the case then good for the PAL users. Just out of curiosity did you run the N64 on a computer monitor that displayed the refresh rate? I ask, because I never heard before that the PAL N64 is able to output 60Hz (doesn't meaning I think it isn't the case, I just never heard of this).

Chris23235 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2023 11:26 am

I hadn't heard this before, if it is the case then good for the PAL users. Just out of curiosity did you run the N64 on a computer monitor that displayed the refresh rate? I ask, because I never heard before that the PAL N64 is able to output 60Hz (doesn't meaning I think it isn't the case, I just never heard of this).

I used a Sony Trinitron KV-14T1U and a Phillips CM8833-II which doesn't show the refresh rate, but I have used with modded PS1 and PS2 for 60HZ NTSC games. Interestingly with the PS1 you can add a dual frequency oscillator as a PAL PS1 doesnt give a perfect 60HZ (RGB will display in colour, but composite and s-video won't) https://quade.co/ps1-modchip-guide/dfo/

The famicom also only displays in B&W on the Sony with a composite mod.

Just a quick google shows that an N64 DFO also exists. https://www.retroupgrades.co.uk/product/n64-ultrapif/

I suppose with the MiSTer you don't have to worry about this.

Thanks for the info, this is interesting, never would have expected that a console not even able to output RGB would be supporting PAL60. This makes the everdrive a non brainer for N64 PAL users as it gives a lot of additional value as it also gives you the N64 passport function.

Bristles wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 1:28 pm

I grew up with PAL, so why would I care about NTSC ?

I'm not sure about N64 games but a lot of earlier games were developed for NTSC and weren't actually ported to PAL. They were just slowed down from 30 to 25 fps and letterboxed slightly by adding 50 blank lines top and bottom to account for the difference in resolution. The games actually played slightly slower than their NTSC counterparts and in a slightly squished aspect ratio.

I'm really thankful for this core even in its current unfinished state. I'm also thankful for all you rascals here with your strong opinions, even if we sometimes forget to be polite to one another because we get a little too passionate about this hobby.

Robert, you told us we'd have maybe one game playable by Christmas, and here we are with a huge swath of the library working great already! I'm thankful for what a machine you are, how polite, interesting and well spoken you are, and how you never engage with any sort of sourness in online discussions. I hope you're looking after yourself while you move at such a fast pace with the development of the core.

I'm also thankful for everyone else who has contributed in even a small way to the MiSTer project. I've had a rough year with several painful and expensive health problems, but I can always be cheered up by playing on the MiSTer! The level of preservation, enhancements and even documentation available in one place is, in my opinion, second to none. Even if a more powerful FPGA kit were to come along, nothing would take away from how magical the MiSTer and its community are!

Antoine.WG wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 5:08 am

Were the drums in the Super Mario 64 intro always that fast?

Apparently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmOz-Dn09rQ

Today's update on the TLB part made the core start more games (e.g. Turok 2, Gauntlet Legends).

Chris23235 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2023 9:30 pm

Today's update on the TLB part made the core start more games (e.g. Turok 2, Gauntlet Legends).

And Perfect Dark!

GoldenEye boots much more smoothly now! It doesn't go in-game for me, but between that and PD getting in-game, that's some impressive progress.

Did someone get the 8bitDo Ultimate 2 Controller work on this Core?

My Analog Stick only turns left/right.... up/down did not work.

With my PS5 Controller it works perfekt over USB.

@SegaMan - try to map the controller in MiSTer menu first (again), and then in the N64 core.

pac wrote: ↑Sun Nov 26, 2023 11:32 am

@SegaMan - try to map the controller in MiSTer menu first (again), and then in the N64 core.

Thats it!

Thx.

nonono wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 12:21 pm

Armakuni wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 12:00 pm

Chris23235 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 10:27 am

In general the NTSC markets (Japan/US) were by far the most important markets for the N64 and every developer targeted the NTSC model, making the PAL version an afterthought. From a framerate perspective the NTSC version is always the preferred version. If you want to play a specific language version it may be different.

Even when one of biggest developers for the N64 Rare were UK based ?

Yes. I actually asked rareware this, back in 1999 or so. Pretty sure it was Wil Overton I emailed. They focused on NTSC first and foremost, but made sure the PAL versions were optimized. Goldeneye, for example, ran at a higher resolution (correctly, no borders!) and ran at the correct PAL speed. The same went for the DKC trilogy on the SNES.

Then they produced a proper PAL version and with the framerate a lot of the N64 games ran at it shouldnt have made much of a difference

What's the default config in Debug settings? Mine is here... but is the right default configs?

@Tulius Rename /media/fat/config/N64.CFG to something else temporarily, load the core to check the default settings and note them down, then rename the config back. That will work on any core.