MiSTer FPGA Forum

ericgus09 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:34 am

aberu wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:24 am now the beta core is downloaded with jtupdater and the key to unlock it is downloaded from patreon.

The update_all script needs this to be disabled by default and "opt-in" by the patreon support themselves .. so these beta cores that require a key are NOT downloaded by default.. put up instructions on the patreon page how to turn it on and opt-in and setup your key ..

Yes, this was made this way after over a day and a half of negative feedback toward the idea.

Hodor wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:45 am Being an option turned off by default as he already says, I don´t see the point for the drama. Those who are actual patreons will work as always with a new tool that help them downloading the beta stuff -cores, mras, roms...-, but everything else is untouched. Nobody will download anything at all if they don´t want to.

I see it very reasonable.

Yes, you should notice that it was about 36 hours after his announcement that this was made official, that it was default off. Originally it didn't sound like it was an ini option at all. I think this change was made at the last minute.

aberu wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:02 pm

ericgus09 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:34 am

aberu wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:24 am now the beta core is downloaded with jtupdater and the key to unlock it is downloaded from patreon.

The update_all script needs this to be disabled by default and "opt-in" by the patreon support themselves .. so these beta cores that require a key are NOT downloaded by default.. put up instructions on the patreon page how to turn it on and opt-in and setup your key ..

Yes, this was made this way after over a day and a half of negative feedback toward the idea.

Hodor wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:45 am Being an option turned off by default as he already says, I don´t see the point for the drama. Those who are actual patreons will work as always with a new tool that help them downloading the beta stuff -cores, mras, roms...-, but everything else is untouched. Nobody will download anything at all if they don´t want to.

I see it very reasonable.

Yes, you should notice that it was about 36 hours after his announcement that this was made official, that it was default off. Originally it didn't sound like it was an ini option at all. I think this change was made at the last minute.

Originally there was no info at all, you just assumed it would be on by default. And even then, update_all is not an official script. The script was made by theypsilon. So maybe if you don't like to use the script the don't do it.

The script is provided by theypsilon for free, it is up to you to download it and use it, nobody forces you to use it. If you don't like how theypsilon handles the script, don't use it.

Chris23235 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:33 pm

aberu wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:02 pm

ericgus09 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:34 am

The update_all script needs this to be disabled by default and "opt-in" by the patreon support themselves .. so these beta cores that require a key are NOT downloaded by default.. put up instructions on the patreon page how to turn it on and opt-in and setup your key ..

Yes, this was made this way after over a day and a half of negative feedback toward the idea.

Hodor wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:45 am Being an option turned off by default as he already says, I don´t see the point for the drama. Those who are actual patreons will work as always with a new tool that help them downloading the beta stuff -cores, mras, roms...-, but everything else is untouched. Nobody will download anything at all if they don´t want to.

I see it very reasonable.

Yes, you should notice that it was about 36 hours after his announcement that this was made official, that it was default off. Originally it didn't sound like it was an ini option at all. I think this change was made at the last minute.

Originally there was no info at all, you just assumed it would be on by default. And even then, update_all is not an official script. The script was made by theypsilon. So maybe if you don't like to use the script the don't do it.

The script is provided by theypsilon for free, maybe it is not that you are forced to use it. If you don't like how theypsilon handles the script, don't use it.

Jotego officially saying that this is because of the feedback seems to indicate that it was not originally planned this way.

I have no major problem with how it's being done now (except for a minor annoyance at patreon ads being put into a core in principle).

My concern wasn't in how I would personally use it, my concern was about people being confused and frustrated who got it from the update-all script and weren't aware of the change and what it was, and then complaining about the MiSTer not working in some issues page or whatever. This was a concern over the platform being tarnished in some way with effectively what is adware.

I find all this discussion amusing in light that if you do flip the beta switch in Update All, you get...nothing.

rhester72 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:11 pm I find all this discussion amusing in light that if you do flip the beta switch in Update All, you get...nothing.

jotego
33m
Please do not enable the beta option in update_all until we confirm everything is ready. We are testing now. #MiSTerFPGA

aberu wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:07 pm
Jotego officially saying that this is because of the feedback seems to indicate that it was not originally planned this way.

Can you point me to where he said this?

aberu wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:02 pm [...]

Hodor wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:45 am Being an option turned off by default as he already says, I don´t see the point for the drama. Those who are actual patreons will work as always with a new tool that help them downloading the beta stuff -cores, mras, roms...-, but everything else is untouched. Nobody will download anything at all if they don´t want to.

I see it very reasonable.

Yes, you should notice that it was about 36 hours after his announcement that this was made official, that it was default off. Originally it didn't sound like it was an ini option at all. I think this change was made at the last minute.

At least the feedback means something for him, which is good by the way. The original idea shared by him on Twitter was a bit confusing and I did not like it either.

Chris23235 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:21 pm

aberu wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:07 pm
Jotego officially saying that this is because of the feedback seems to indicate that it was not originally planned this way.

Can you point me to where he said this?

After this I probably won't reply for awhile. I am going on vacation and going to be less active, but here ya go, here's the evidence that I used to justify my position I stated earlier. You will see that the plan originally was that people could opt-out of jt betas in the ini for update-all and due to negative feedback online they changed this to opt-in.

Twitter - June 9th 2021 12:27PM MST - https://twitter.com/topapate/status/1402693896988135424 "It just means that you will hit update_all on your MiSTer and get all files download for you." MiSTer FPGA discord in #general-discussion June 9th 2021 3:15PM MST - "jotego Very interesting feedback. I'll try to make things work out well for everyone. ... You will not be forced to get beta cores if you don't want to. Just edit the config file for update_all." JTFPGA discord in #general_patrons channel - June 9th 2021 3:22PM MST - "jotego It's a hard choice because I want to make life easy for patrons. So I'm inclined to add the betas in the current JTBIN repository and create a new repo for public stuff. So non-patrons will be the ones who have to edit their current config file to opt out" JTFPGA discord in #general_patrons channel - June 9th 2021 3:24PM MST - "Dinierto IMO it might be better if it could be coordinated with the update_all script to where you could opt IN as a setting in the INI, then nobody has cores that won't run or that they don't need". So you can see, the day of making this officially announced the plan was that users could OPT OUT in the ini, meaning they would all receive it. Lots of users gave feedback that was basically liked and reacted to which said it should be opt-in by default, meaning the user would have to consent to being sent the adware beta. Then, yesterday at 8:57AM MST...

JTFPGA discord in #general_patrons channel - June 10th 2021 8:57AM MST - "jotego I'm working with theYpsilon so it will be default off in update_all" I applaud jotego for changing what was originally planned. Good on him.

But to those of us who were paying attention and providing this feedback, the evidence is clear as day that the original plan was to automatically start pushing out what is essentially adware to users that were completely unaware of the situation.

I don't understand the fanaticism surrounding jotego or why there are people that feel the need to make up their own facts to defend him. He's just a developer who is doing something he likes and doing a good job at it. No developer should have this weird cult surrounding them.

Example... Prior to our feedback, this is what the average user who uses update-all would have seen when it was opt-out by default (meaning the user would have to actively opt-out of getting betas).
This is really goofy to even dispute that this would cause frustration.

I think the current system we have of releasing partially functioning cores and not clearing marking them as beta is a lot more frustrating. This shouldn't just be for jotago cores.

dmckean wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:48 pm I think the current system we have of releasing partially functioning cores and not clearing marking them as beta is a lot more frustrating. This shouldn't just be for jotago cores.

Do you have an example of this previously in mind? I'm not sure what you mean.

First impressions:
Disappointed by the nagging/advert popup: it should at least time out so we can enjoy the little there is to see.
The system seems to start only for SYSTEM16, no CPS2. How will it go for new patrons? Will they have to use the old method, will they be excluded because they became a patron too late or simply priority was given to SYSTEM16 and CPS2 will come later?
The organizer script seems to have some trouble: no SYSTEM16 in Manufacturer -> Sega.
Only + (this is the smallest + sign available on my KB): you can check that the core loads properly on your MISTer and that the graphics are not corrupted which could indicate a memory problem. Speaking of memory: I only have 32MB SDRAM. If an arcade needs more (which I think some CPS2 arcade do) will I be able to know by popup/corrupted graphics or would I be aware of it if I was far enough in the game (which I cannot)?
In conclusion: it is a good system for patrons and it is good that the beta downloads are disabled by default.

jca wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:56 pm First impressions:
Disappointed by the nagging/advert popup: it should at least time out so we can enjoy the little there is to see.
The system seems to start only for SYSTEM16, no CPS2. How will it go for new patrons? Will they have to use the old method, will they be excluded because they became a patron too late or simply priority was given to SYSTEM16 and CPS2 will come later?

The CPS2 cores should go public soon as the beta currently is apparently the final beta.

jca wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:56 pm First impressions:
Disappointed by the nagging/advert popup: it should at least time out so we can enjoy the little there is to see.
The system seems to start only for SYSTEM16, no CPS2. How will it go for new patrons? Will they have to use the old method, will they be excluded because they became a patron too late or simply priority was given to SYSTEM16 and CPS2 will come later?
The organizer script seems to have some trouble: no SYSTEM16 in Manufacturer -> Sega.
Only + (this is the smallest + sign available on my KB): you can check that the core loads properly on your MISTer and that the graphics are not corrupted which could indicate a memory problem. Speaking of memory: I only have 32MB SDRAM. If an arcade needs more (which I think some CPS2 arcade do) will I be able to know by popup/corrupted graphics or would I be aware of it if I was far enough in the game (which I cannot)?
In conclusion: it is a good system for patrons and it is good that the beta downloads are disabled by default.

When you become a patron you get access to all previous posts too you know. They have the same access to files as old patrons so no one is excluded.
If you become a patron now you can just download the cps2 core no problem

aberu wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:08 pm So DRM has come to MiSTer? Kinda ironic.

Like it's a good thing to make it a little easier on patrons, it's a little over the top to call it ingenious imo, since having keys to use software has been around since the earliest days of software

It is, it made life so much easier. I didn't see 1k+ people who can't copy files to a directory complaining. Nor complaining that there ROM files were not fetched. Again, this isn't the official MiSTer_Updater script. DRM or not, it's not a big deal. Also, I'm the voice that suggested it be set to off. Not you. Stop acting like you're the hero birdybro.

Also, it's a box you play illegal roms on. Let's talk about laws and licensing everybody. JFC.

aberu wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:07 pm

But to those of us who were paying attention and providing this feedback, the evidence is clear as day that the original plan was to automatically start pushing out what is essentially adware to users that were completely unaware of the situation.

That's no evidence at all. This was a new process and things were not all sussed out properly. There are plenty of people including directors (which I am not) who had discussions in the privates channels which you are not privy to. Using lies to prove your point wont get you anywhere in the long run.

Does anyone know why progress of the CPS 2 core halted after the "final beta" and focus shifted to System 16 core?

They want to make you wait another 3 months

The last bugs are possibly CPU related and has Jotego stumped. The bugs that are left are significant enough to make things feel buggy. He let his patreon supporters choose whether to release the core now or wait for it to be polished up more and we chose to wait.

atrac17 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:20 am

aberu wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:08 pm So DRM has come to MiSTer? Kinda ironic.

Like it's a good thing to make it a little easier on patrons, it's a little over the top to call it ingenious imo, since having keys to use software has been around since the earliest days of software

It is, it made life so much easier. I didn't see 1k+ people who can't copy files to a directory complaining. Nor complaining that there ROM files were not fetched. Again, this isn't the official MiSTer_Updater script. DRM or not, it's not a big deal. Also, I'm the voice that suggested it be set to off. Not you. Stop acting like you're the hero birdybro.

Also, it's a box you play illegal roms on. Let's talk about laws and licensing everybody. JFC.

You aren't "the voice", and neither was I. There were loads of people on twitter responding to Jotego in JTFPGA patrons channel, on the MiSTer FPGA discord, on twitter, etc... Well before you said anything publicly and well before Jotego said he was going to ask theypsilon to have it changed from opt-out to opt-in. I stated that I and lots of other people pushed back, I didn't say that I was some hero.

I don't disagree that it has made life easier, I literally said the same thing in the post you quoted. There are other posts, tweest, and chat messages of mine you obviously have ignored where I defend the decision from that perspective because it's an unnecessary load of tickets. My main problem with it was that it was originally opt-out. I still don't like the aesthetics of what looks like early 2000's shareware overlays on the MiSTer that promote people to pay into his patreon for access to the software. Paying for emulators, despite it being something I already effectively do in some way with a long list of core devs I support, is still something I feel weird about.

You also didn't respond to my main point where I pointed out that it's a bit of an exaggeration to call key license files "ingenious" in 2021. If you are offended, it's only because I had a sensible reaction to your dramaticization of a fairly mundane detail of a good solution to a real problem.

I also don't think I've talked about licensing or laws in any strong way on this at all. Jotego also said he would remove the GPL from all his work over time to address these concerns, and that's awesome, yet another win in the marketplace of ideas where a developer listens to feedback from their users. I'm glad Jotego has a more mature public attitude than you do toward feedback.

tldr; I've been consistent. It aesthetically rubs me the wrong way, I think it makes sense, opt-out was bad, people pushed back en masse, changing it to opt-in was awesome and I'm glad all of our feedback (including yours) was listened to. Revisionism of the timeline of events is unnecessary because a developer listening to their users' feedback is a GOOD thing. IDGAF about laws and licensing honestly.

suverman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:39 am

aberu wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:07 pm

But to those of us who were paying attention and providing this feedback, the evidence is clear as day that the original plan was to automatically start pushing out what is essentially adware to users that were completely unaware of the situation.

That's no evidence at all. This was a new process and things were not all sussed out properly. There are plenty of people including directors (which I am not) who had discussions in the privates channels which you are not privy to. Using lies to prove your point wont get you anywhere in the long run.

See said evidence here with timestamps --> viewtopic.php?p=27801#p27801

suverman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:39 am

aberu wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:07 pm

But to those of us who were paying attention and providing this feedback, the evidence is clear as day that the original plan was to automatically start pushing out what is essentially adware to users that were completely unaware of the situation.

That's no evidence at all. This was a new process and things were not all sussed out properly. There are plenty of people including directors (which I am not) who had discussions in the privates channels which you are not privy to. Using lies to prove your point wont get you anywhere in the long run.

See said evidence here with timestamps --> viewtopic.php?p=27801#p27801
[/quote]

Stop cherrypicking. I don't have the time or inclination to produce "evidences", but you are wrong. I am out of this conversation, I wanted people to realise what you saying is not true. I have no interest or time talking to you.

suverman wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:44 pm Stop cherrypicking. I don't have the time or inclination to produce "evidences", but you are wrong. I am out of this conversation, I wanted people to realise what you saying is not true. I have no interest or time talking to you.

People can make up their own minds, I provided evidence with timestamps, you provided conjecture. Whatever.

To be clear, if I'm wrong I gladly welcome evidence to the contrary and have zero problem with admitting I'm wrong. You do whatever you want to do. I was justifying my position because I believe things based on the evidence that I can see. I'm not going to just refrain from defending myself from accusations of me lying or something, when I'm not. It's not lying if the evidence I have seen shows what I believe to be true. If there is more evidence that shows what I believe is not true, then I will change my mind.

Don't sweat it birdybro, everyone here knows what's up.

Meanwhile I can't wait to see if the recent Moto 68k bugfixes might benefit other non-JT cores. Time will tell. All I can say is it's really exciting to see you devs rock this party like a hurricane. Send me updates over 110-baaud smoke signals, I have no rights to complain either way.

lamarax wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:59 pm Don't sweat it birdybro, everyone here knows what's up.

...

I'm sure you all do. There aren't directors that have input. It's birdybro, birdybro alone.

It wasn't something that kintrix came to me about.

It was all you guys who "know" what's up.

aberu wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:17 pm

atrac17 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:20 am

aberu wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:08 pm So DRM has come to MiSTer? Kinda ironic.

Like it's a good thing to make it a little easier on patrons, it's a little over the top to call it ingenious imo, since having keys to use software has been around since the earliest days of software

It is, it made life so much easier. I didn't see 1k+ people who can't copy files to a directory complaining. Nor complaining that there ROM files were not fetched. Again, this isn't the official MiSTer_Updater script. DRM or not, it's not a big deal. Also, I'm the voice that suggested it be set to off. Not you. Stop acting like you're the hero birdybro.

Also, it's a box you play illegal roms on. Let's talk about laws and licensing everybody. JFC.

You aren't "the voice", and neither was I. There were loads of people on twitter responding to Jotego in JTFPGA patrons channel, on the MiSTer FPGA discord, on twitter, etc... Well before you said anything publicly and well before Jotego said he was going to ask theypsilon to have it changed from opt-out to opt-in. I stated that I and lots of other people pushed back, I didn't say that I was some hero.

I don't disagree that it has made life easier, I literally said the same thing in the post you quoted. There are other posts, tweest, and chat messages of mine you obviously have ignored where I defend the decision from that perspective because it's an unnecessary load of tickets. My main problem with it was that it was originally opt-out. I still don't like the aesthetics of what looks like early 2000's shareware overlays on the MiSTer that promote people to pay into his patreon for access to the software. Paying for emulators, despite it being something I already effectively do in some way with a long list of core devs I support, is still something I feel weird about.

You also didn't respond to my main point where I pointed out that it's a bit of an exaggeration to call key license files "ingenious" in 2021. If you are offended, it's only because I had a sensible reaction to your dramaticization of a fairly mundane detail of a good solution to a real problem.

I also don't think I've talked about licensing or laws in any strong way on this at all. Jotego also said he would remove the GPL from all his work over time to address these concerns, and that's awesome, yet another win in the marketplace of ideas where a developer listens to feedback from their users. I'm glad Jotego has a more mature public attitude than you do toward feedback.

tldr; I've been consistent. It aesthetically rubs me the wrong way, I think it makes sense, opt-out was bad, people pushed back en masse, changing it to opt-in was awesome and I'm glad all of our feedback (including yours) was listened to. Revisionism of the timeline of events is unnecessary because a developer listening to their users' feedback is a GOOD thing. IDGAF about laws and licensing honestly.

suverman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:39 am

aberu wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:07 pm

But to those of us who were paying attention and providing this feedback, the evidence is clear as day that the original plan was to automatically start pushing out what is essentially adware to users that were completely unaware of the situation.

That's no evidence at all. This was a new process and things were not all sussed out properly. There are plenty of people including directors (which I am not) who had discussions in the privates channels which you are not privy to. Using lies to prove your point wont get you anywhere in the long run.

See said evidence here with timestamps --> viewtopic.php?p=27801#p27801

Bro, I can't post private group chats or DM's between me and kitrinx. This was something that was decided by the directors with the solution provided.

Honestly, it was pointless to even bring it up. I'll go back to the real world while everybody else here that doesn't know what's going on lives in fantasy... It's cool....

aberu wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 3:00 pm

suverman wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:44 pm Stop cherrypicking. I don't have the time or inclination to produce "evidences", but you are wrong. I am out of this conversation, I wanted people to realise what you saying is not true. I have no interest or time talking to you.

People can make up their own minds, I provided evidence with timestamps, you provided conjecture. Whatever.

To be clear, if I'm wrong I gladly welcome evidence to the contrary and have zero problem with admitting I'm wrong. You do whatever you want to do. I was justifying my position because I believe things based on the evidence that I can see. I'm not going to just refrain from defending myself from accusations of me lying or something, when I'm not. It's not lying if the evidence I have seen shows what I believe to be true. If there is more evidence that shows what I believe is not true, then I will change my mind.

You will not bait me to share "evidence" what goes on in DMs and closed channels. Stop.

Shut Up Aberu your constant attacks on people are wearing thin!

FatSlob71 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:58 am Shut Up Aberu your constant attacks on people are wearing thin!

Not sure why you are accusing me of attacking people. They are the ones calling me names, talking trash, being aggressive, I've just provided evidence, and provided my opinion on the aesthetics of having a demo core with a big banner advertising to go to patreon and give money to unlock it. You on the other hand, seem to be making highly misleading negative comments against Jotego and his project...

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=2757&p=27992#p27992

FatSlob71 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:14 am They want to make you wait another 3 months

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=2683&p=27524#p27524

FatSlob71 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:18 pm He too Busy with System 16 core now so will take 3 months more most likely!

Both of these things are basically conspiracy theories, so I think you should take your own advice, personally.

atrac17 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:20 pm

lamarax wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:59 pm Don't sweat it birdybro, everyone here knows what's up.

...

I'm sure you all do. There aren't directors that have input. It's birdybro, birdybro alone.

It wasn't something that kintrix came to me about.

It was all you guys who "know" what's up.

I never claimed that it was me alone, I never claimed you and Kitrinx didn't bring it up prior to anyone else. I don't know why you care that much about being "the first person" or whatever. Such a bizarre ego. You can have it. All hail king Atrac17, first person to privately come up with a mundane common sense proposal to change it so that people have to opt-in to receive the beta adware cores.

The new official story is that Jotego ignored all of the public feedback on the opt-in by default in the script, and he only listened to you. Got it. Such is the decree of King Atrac17, author of JTFPGA history.

suverman wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:44 pm You will not bait me to share "evidence" what goes on in DMs and closed channels. Stop.

No, I'm not baiting you. I'm describing to you how knowledge works because people started calling me a liar and trashing on me. I have a justified true belief that is based on evidence, that Jotego did the right thing and listened to feedback and said he would tell the dev of the script to change it so you would need to opt-in to receive the beta core instead of needing to opt-out of it to not receive the core.

My opinion is not trashing on Jotego or attacking any of you people that seem to be quick to jump to the defense of Jotego in this misguided angry way. My opinion is he did the right thing, he does an amazing job on the cores he works on and continues to improve, and I still find the big ad overlay in a beta core on the MiSTer to be kinda aesthetically displeasing.

Stop putting me in some black and white "this is our enemy" camp or something. It's embarrassing.

atrac17 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:26 pm Bro, I can't post private group chats or DM's between me and kitrinx. This was something that was decided by the directors with the solution provided.

Honestly, it was pointless to even bring it up. I'll go back to the real world while everybody else here that doesn't know what's going on lives in fantasy... It's cool....

I'm not asking you to post that. I'm asking you all to stop calling me a liar and trashing on me for having observed things with my own two eyes, justified my position by providing evidence for what I saw with my own two eyes, and having an opinion of Jotego that is very favorable because of how he handled the feedback. I don't get why you are so offended.