MiSTer FPGA Forum

Malor wrote: ↑Sat Jun 04, 2022 12:13 amThe Dreamcast kinda got left out, though. I think maybe that had the best hardware of the three

I wouldn't place the Dreamcast in the same generation of PSX and N64. T

The "three" of that era/generation were Saturn, PSX and N64, which all came out in 95/96 in the US/EU. The Dreamcast came out in 1999 in the US so, 3 years after the N64, and it was like a whole new generation, hardware was progressing very fast back then ( the first Voodoo card came out in 1996 ) and, fact the DC was the first home console that moved away from the usual 320x240 or so resolution since the 8 bit era, was a clear sign it was a "next-gen" hardware when it came out.

DC really belongs more to the PS2/Xbox/Gamecube era ( all 480p-ish ), but it was destroyed by the hype surrounding the release of the PS2 and clearly, lots of developers didn't had much faith in Sega, after the Saturn ( and the 32X ).

but I only remember Crazy Taxi and Skies of Arcadia as being really fun to play.

I know the DC quite well ( I have two of them... ) and there were quite a bit of great games other than those two, for example:

Soul Calibur
Shen Mue
Marvel vs Capcom
Virtua Tennis
Phantasy Star Online (an online MMO on console, I played it to death, with the BB adapter! )
Jet Set Radio
Metropolis Street Racer
Resident Evil Code Veronica
Power Stone 2 ( that was a lot of fun, especially in 4 people )
Dead or Alive 2
NFL 2K2
Grandia 2

Between the low console sales and the different approach to 3D (it used tile rendering), not very many devs risked writing for it.

The DC wasn't so difficult to develop for, because it could run Windows CE, so developers could choose to use the familiar DirectX without worrying too much about the strange tile rendering.

I think the main problem for Sega getting developers on board (the most striking absence was EA) was:

- the Saturn was perceived as a failure, which came after an even bigger fail, the 32X

- there was just too much anticipation and pre-release hype for PS2.

- Microsoft, who worked with Sega on the Dreamcast ( it ran Windows CE ), was right there waiting for Sega to fail and basically took all the best ideas from the DC, like the Ethernet connection on connected console, the embedded Windows, the controller layout, to do the Xbox, which came only few months after the DC was discountinued.

In fact, I think that more than the PS2, it was the original Xbox that really killed the Dreamcast. With Microsoft being able to lose money indefinitely, and Sony unstoppable and Nintendo still always profitable, even with the Gamecube, the market really couldn't sustain 4 console makers so, the weakest had to go, and it was obviously Sega.

virtuali wrote: ↑Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:28 am an even bigger fail, the 32X

Anyone who believed in the 32X at that time was a fool. It was doomed even before the start.

virtuali wrote: ↑Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:28 am In fact, I think that more than the PS2, it was the original Xbox that really killed the Dreamcast. With Microsoft being able to lose money indefinitely, and Sony unstoppable and Nintendo still always profitable, even with the Gamecube, the market really couldn't sustain 4 console makers so, the weakest had to go, and it was obviously Sega.

Nope, the PS2 did and the Xbox OG did nothing at all, excepted being a run-in for Microsoft.

Microsoft took off with the 360 and the PS3 took a hit from it. The PS3 had its flaws, first one being the price. Sony was too much arrogant with this one, the PS2 really into their heads.

But, back to the DC, it was the PS2.

From the start, Sega publicly turned itself into a beggar. The commercials were all saying "If the DC flops, we are doomed".

But the true critical hit was that the PS2 came with a DVD player, at a price that even made non-gamers buy a PS2 in order to have a cheap DVD player. DVD was all the rage and that nailed the Dreamcast coffin.

The first PS2 games were crap and even friends who made the night in Tokyo in front of the store to buy one at launch used it at first as a DVD player, as the games were just shit.

When he came back home, we used the PS2 to watch a 3D Gunnm DVD and it was all the hype: a DVD video on the PS2.

The Xbox OG came when the battle was already over and it basically was used for XBMC (now Kodi) and emulators.

Slipard wrote: ↑Sat Jun 04, 2022 5:17 amNope, the PS2 did and the Xbox OG did nothing at all, excepted being a run-in for Microsoft.

It was the PS2, but the Xbox played a big part as well.

One of the biggest causes for the DC failure was the lack of EA, which was one of the main players in the MD/Genesis era and, by looking at the timings ( the Xbox was announced at the 2001 CES in January 2001, the DC was discontinued in March ), it's clear that with EA and so many other developers on board too, Sega would end up invariably in the 4th place but, and it couldn't possibly be profitable in that position, considering they didn't had Microsoft money to burn, especially after a somewhat fail with the Saturn, and a catastrophic fail with the 32X.

The 6th generation ended with Sony dominating sales, with 155 millions PS2, Microsoft in the 2nd place with 24 millions (which is not bad, considering they basically didn't sell at all in Japan), and Nintendo in 3rd place with 22 millions GC.

It's *possible* that, without the Xbox, DC might still have survived, or at least it might stayed around for a bit longer, although I still think it would have been the last Sega console in any case. Even if Nintendo lost a lot of its market share with the GC, it still made a lot of money because they dominated the handheld market, and later on they got incredibly lucky and sold a boatload of Wiis so, Nintendo failures weren't as bad as Sega's and they had other products to rely on, so they could continue to stay in the market against MS and Sony, but Sega couldn't.

So, as with anything, there wasn't a single cause for Sega failure, you can't just say "it was the PS2", plain an simple. It was a combination of causes, the PS2 being one, Microsoft entering the market another one, the loss of reputation with developers due failing twice in a row (32x and Saturn), and the lack of other successful products to keep going, since the other area in which Sega operated, the arcade market, was way past its heyday and kept shrinking. And, I forgot another spectacular fail, the Genesis Nomad. The GG did a bit better, but it sold like 10x less than the Gameboy.

Slipard wrote: ↑Sat Jun 04, 2022 5:17 am The first PS2 games were crap and even friends who made the night in Tokyo in front of the store to buy one at launch used it at first as a DVD player, as the games were just shit.

Nah, Ridge Racer V is still one of my favorite games ever, and TTT holds up really well too (although the heavily improved NTSC/UC version is the one to play of course).

It's always been my theory that at least in North America, the public will only accept 3 consoles and anything beyond that will get pushed out, which is what happened to Sega. The other 3 console manufacturers simply had way higher budgets for game development and marketing, more third-party developers and most importantly, more consumer confidence. The 6th generation is interestingly the least competitive generation of all-time. Sony absolutely floored the competition with adding DVD support which can't be understated how huge that was at the time. I owned all 3 consoles back in the day (sorry Dreamcast), and I used the PS2 50% of the time as a DVD player and the other 50% for games. It's also understated how big of a fail that the GameCube was in terms of sales. How does an upstart Xbox outsell Nintendo, especially considering their console has essentially a 0% market share in Japan, which is one of the biggest game markets in the world? That's a big fail. They obviously course-corrected with the Wii.

You can make the case that either Microsoft or Sony replaced them. I think they both replaced them tbh since they had way deeper pockets. Sega was doomed to fail as a hardware manufacturer. It's only a debate of when they'd fail. Best-case scenario, in a world where the original Xbox didn't exist, Sega would've probably survived until 2003-2004 before filing for bankruptcy. Some of those exclusive Xbox and GameCube games such as Panzer Dragoon Orta, Super Monkey Ball and ToeJam & Earl 3 would've been Dreamcast titles. History wouldn't have changed that much for Sega, even in the best-case scenario.

People really forgets the Japanese Dreamcast launch. Or maybe didn't you live it? But it was pathetic: from the start, Dreamcast was sold as the last chance console and the PS2 with the DVD player was when everyone, including Sega themselves, knew Sega hardware was done.

Everywhere, people where telling to buy a PS2 instead of a DC, because of the DVD player and the backward compatibility, the two things people asked for the DC and Sega never delivered.

Fun memory: when Shenmue was released in Japan, the rumor spread there was a Saturn emulator hidden in the game and many people (my stupid GF included) bought the game just for that.

The Xbox here gets too much credit. It was mostly a casual gamer U.S.A. thingy, Japan bombed and Europa was a Sony/Nintendo market.

But, don't get me wrong: I have one Xbox OG and I will keep it because I like it, especially with the S controller.

As for RR5 and TTT, all independent video games journalists, including me, spat on them and we never felt the urge to rehabilitate them. Meanwhile, I stand on my position that Kessen that great if you spoke Japanese.

Slipard wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 7:26 amPeople really forgets the Japanese Dreamcast launch. Or maybe didn't you live it? But it was pathetic: from the start, Dreamcast was sold as the last chance console and the PS2 with the DVD player was when everyone, including Sega themselves, knew Sega hardware was done.

I still have a Japan launch DC ( the one with the face of a Sega exec on the cover, which was taken from the japan TV ad ) and no, you don't seem to remember the Japan launch, which wasn't pathetic at all, since the console was sold out in a day. The only mishap was the lack of Sonic Adventure at launch, but they couldn't sell more than they did anyway, since there wasn't enough stock.

Everywhere, people where telling to buy a PS2 instead of a DC, because of the DVD player and the backward compatibility, the two things people asked for the DC and Sega never delivered.

When the DC launched in Japan ( Nov. 1998 ), the PS2 wasn't even announced, so nobody could tell you "buy a PS2 instead, because it has a DVD", nobody knew what the PS2 would look like back then, considering it was announced several months later, in March 1999.

And yet, even if it happened well after the PS2 was announced, the Dreamcast US launch was VERY good, it was the most successful console launch in the US to date, and by Christmas, SEGA reached more than 30% of the US market.

The Xbox here gets too much credit. It was mostly a casual gamer U.S.A. thingy, Japan bombed and Europa was a Sony/Nintendo market.

You are missing the point.

Xbox wasn't so much important as a console per-se. The big thing was the very fact Microsoft entered the console market, and they could go on for years losing money without any troubles, while Sega certainly couldn't. Everybody (especially developers) knew that, and considering Xbox sold almost *nothing* in Japan, it still managed to arrive in 2nd place in the 6th generation, even outselling Nintendo and starting from scratch. So yes, even if Sony floored the competition with the PS2 in that era, the OG Xbox was *very* important for Microsoft and I think they achieved what they wanted with it.

So no, again, it wasn't just the "wait for PS2" hype, it was a combination of many things all together, which is usually the case:

- The PS2 arrival, yes.

- The loss of Sega reputation with developers and users due to several failed launches.

- The dire financial situation at Sega *because* of these failures, without the ability to rely on other very successfully products to make money to invest in marketing, like Nintendo could. Sega lost money for several years in a row because of their past mistakes, they were seriously considering to be acquired by Microsoft.

- The lost deal with EA, which was one of the main players on the MD/Genesis ( they sold a boatload of FIFA on the MD, it was a system seller ), which was partially caused by the fact EA wanted an exclusive on Sports games on the DC, which wasn't possible, since Sega bought Visual Concept to have good internally developed Sports games, and this clashed with EA demands, so the deal was off.

- Microsoft entering the market, with endless cash reserves, and a huge network of already established developers relationships, relegating Sega to inevitably end up in 4th place with a very small market share, not enough to be profitable.

- As usual, looking at dates can tell many things. Sales for the DC in Japan started to decline at start of 2000. While it's true this was mainly because the PS2 just came out, another thing came out around that time, and it was the Utopia boot disk, making the DC the EASIEST console ever to pirate, since it didn't even require a mod-chip.

I DO recall this very well, since in the 90's I used to run a videogame shop. The DC was a fairly profitable system for us because, while there wasn't much money to be made on PSX other than selling accessories like RGB cables, action replays, memory cards, etc. the DC INITIALLY was way more profitable, since we could sell expensive Japan imported games (there was a region free-only mod-chip before Utopia, it was only used for imports) or even imported Japanese consoles, since the European launch happened basically a year after the Japan launch.

Well, this ALL stopped soon after Utopia came out, the DC was still popular with our customers, because we keep selling RGB cables, Joypads, special hardware like the fishing rod or the light gun or the dance mats, but people basically STOPPED buying games very shortly after Utopia came out so, don't under estimate the impact of piracy and no, before someone says "but piracy helped the PSX", that's somewhat true, but the PSX was already well established when mod-chips became cheap and easier to install, but piracy on DC started overnight, with a whole new level of ease of use ( nobody ever heard of a console that could play burned disks without a modchip ) and it affected the console before it reached a large enough market share to be able to tolerate some piracy.

You are missing my point. You are talking from a consumer point of view, while I talk from an industry point of view. Quite different experiences, especially after the PS1: to succeed, you needed to reiterate what Sony did: unite both hardcore and mass markets.

Dreamcast launch was hardcore market, not mass market. PS2 launch was both.

Besides that, a console sold out in one day is good for advertisement. Great. Now move to industry perspective: there was a shortage of components and the Dreamcast being sold out was ALSO because they couldn't produce as much as they wanted.

Shortages can be good, when you have back stock to sell at any point. When you don't have any stock left and you can't produce as you want, then it is bad. And it was bad enough.

Then, another point you miss: a console has a lifespan. You need to have a strong launch, but also a strong following in sales. As soon as the PS2 was announced, Dreamcast took a toll. And, yes, magazines quickly said it was better to wait for the PS2. No mystery: Sony advertisement budget was far better than Sega's. And you don't sell a video games magazine for the news and tests. Nah, you sell it as much as you can to bill as high as you can the advertisement space, where you really make the money.

As for the Xbox, I don't miss any point. Yes, Microsoft used it as a foot in the door, but that was a long shot in preparation for the next gen, where all the efforts were really put. But, when PS2 came, the sales were already plummeting to the point that Sega knew they wouldn't go further. Battle was done, and Xbox arrived after the battle.

Besides that, the Utopia disc helped sell more consoles. But even with that, it wasn't enough to compete. Utopia was released on the June 22, 2000 while the PS2 launched in Japan early March. Already, PS2 was all the rage inside AND outside Japan, for both hardcore and mass markets, while Utopia was hardcore thingy.

And good for you if you had a video game shop, but you were just in the end of the supply chain. That is not industry perspective; it is local retail perspective. Again, quite different things, especially since you didn't have mass retail perspective.

(And if you want to do curriculums, I can't go into details, but I have been inside (Nintendo, Sega, Sony and indirectly Microsoft), outside (video game journalist, retailer and importer both local and nationwide) and between (*cough*) the industry.)

Slipard wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 3:44 pmYou are missing my point. You are talking from a consumer point of view, while I talk from an industry point of view. Quite different experiences, especially after the PS1: to succeed, you needed to reiterate what Sony did: unite both hardcore and mass markets.

I wasn't missing any points, and I was obviously taking into account both, users and industry. That's precisely why I kept saying Microsoft entering the industry was a bigger factor than it might seem, MORE because of MS hold on developers community and tools at large, than its reach to customers. Customers could be impressed by the PS2 pre-launch hype, industry, not so much, they clearly understood Microsoft was there for the long game, and Sega couldn't just exists in 4th place. They might, without Microsoft.

Dreamcast launch was hardcore market, not mass market. PS2 launch was both.

It was a good launch nevertheless, not "pathetic" one.

Besides that, a console sold out in one day is good for advertisement. Great. Now move to industry perspective: there was a shortage of components and the Dreamcast being sold out was ALSO because they couldn't produce as much as they wanted.

That doesn't make today's PS5 launch any less a good launch that it is.

Then, another point you miss: a console has a lifespan. You need to have a strong launch, but also a strong following in sales. As soon as the PS2 was announced, Dreamcast took a toll.

In Japan, maybe. But that didn't prevent to get a very good US launch, even better than Japan's, and that happened months AFTER the PS2 was announced.

No mystery: Sony advertisement budget was far better than Sega's. And you don't sell a video games magazine for the news and tests. Nah, you sell it as much as you can to bill as high as you can the advertisement space, where you really make the money.

That's fairly obvious. Sega was struggling for money, that's what I kept repeating many times. But it's too simplistic to say the PS2 was the one cause for DC and Sega exit from the console market.

This is what I contest: people dismissing the importance of Microsoft entry, which doesn't have anything to do with the actual OG Xbox success and again, seen from an industry perspective, Microsoft entering the console market was the final blow to Sega.

Without Microsoft, the DC would likely lasted longer. Don't forget that in only two years of its short life, it matched Saturn sales ( about 9 million units ) so, had it lasted a couple of years more, it would probably match the Gamecube 20M-ish sales. However, the end result wouldn't have changed much, it would still likely the last Sega console, but it would have been perceived less as a failure.

Battle was done, and Xbox arrived after the battle.

The Xbox was officially announced at CES January 6th 2001, Sega announced their retirement from the console market 3 weeks later Jan 31th. So, it wasn't "just" the PS2, it was a combination of MANY multiple things, as usually is with important event, it's just too simple to say "it was the PS2", when it clearly wasn't the PS2 alone.

Besides that, the Utopia disc helped sell more consoles.

Which SEGA was already selling at loss, because they already lowered the price.

while Utopia was hardcore thingy.

Exactly my point. A console which started ( your words ) with an eye on the hardcore gamers, was more likely to suffer for piracy, because at that time it still haven't sold ENOUGH ( critical mass ) to exit from the hardcore phase and enter the long tail of the larger market. That's why it was more damaging than helpful.

virtuali wrote: ↑Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:28 am The "three" of that era/generation were Saturn, PSX and N64, which all came out in 95/96 in the US/EU. The Dreamcast came out in 1999 in the US so, 3 years after the N64, and it was like a whole new generation, hardware was progressing very fast back then ( the first Voodoo card came out in 1996 ) and, fact the DC was the first home console that moved away from the usual 320x240 or so resolution since the 8 bit era, was a clear sign it was a "next-gen" hardware when it came out.

I would place 3DO as the fourth of the 5th generation era

And I absolutely agree with you that Dreamcast is part of the 6th generation of consoles, alongside PS2, GameCube, and Xbox.

Dreamcast's release date was so early it's almost like Gen 5.5, but on the other hand it had online features that wouldn't become common until 7th gen.

virtuali wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 4:37 pm

61XWDPF9jWL._SL1400_.jpg (127.2 KiB) Viewed 13148 times

I feel like Deunan in front of Redump and I am not paid for that.

The launch in Japan was bad over lost sales due to shortages but going over the DC's life and failure is meaningless. You're looking at the car crash at the bottom of the hill when it started at the top.

The Dreamcast was done and doomed before it was launched. Years before, in fact. Sega needed to get its shit together in like, '92. Management needed to quell the infighting, unify the departments and focus on streamlining development to repeat their successes as with the Mega Drive / Genesis. They gave up so much ground and wasted so much development time from 92 on the Dreamcast just couldn't do enough.

Remember they only survived as a company because Okawa forgave them all that debt and gave them all that money.

Larkhainan wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 5:42 amThe Dreamcast was done and doomed before it was launched. Years before, in fact. Sega needed to get its shit together in like, '92.

Exactly the point I was trying to make, while some are trying to continue in the simpleton explanation of "it was the PS2", when in fact it was a combination of multiple factors, with all the mistakes Sega did between the Genesis/MD and the Dreamcast that put things in motion and Sega in the POSITION of not being able to compete being fairly important.

The arrival of the PS2 only meant the best Sega could hope for, was competing against Nintendo for the 2nd place, but the following history ( until today ) show the market *could* sustain 3 consoles on the market at the same time. But not 4. That's why it was Microsoft arrival the final nail in the coffin for Sega.

And no, I don't think there would have been another Sega console after the DC, even if the DC survived a couple of years more, possibly reaching Gamecube-level sales. Nintendo had a long series of very successful handhelds to remain profitable, Sega didn't, so they would probably have filed for bankruptcy ( = bought by Microsoft, most likely ) few years later anyway.

KremlingKuthroat19 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 6:46 pm I keep seeing people saying a new FPGA board in the next 5-10 years, yet I think a successor board is sooner than people realize. The chip shortage really did screw things up, but I think we're about 2-4 years away from an affordable and new more powerful FPGA board that can run the N64/DS. There are already boards that exist that can run the N64 easily and are around $400-$500. If those boards go down in price to around the sweet spot of $250-300, then I don't see why a MiSTer 2 wouldn't be in the cards. Plus, Robert Piep has already expressed interest in both platforms, yet they can't fit on MiSTer, so the only thing that's in the way are current prices.

As for cores in complexity beyond the N64 and DS, it'll be interesting if a theoretical MiSTer 2 could run anything close to Dreamcast/PS2 level games. The manhours to reverse engineer those consoles would be huge so that's the biggest issue imo. It'd be interesting to see if AI could somehow be trained to decap these consoles and write out the code in Verlilog/HDL one day.

For reference, here is the board being used for the UltraFPG64: https://digilent.com/shop/nexys-video-a ... lications/

I wonder if anyone has been in contact with Terasic (surely they are aware of the DE-10's primary usage) to request features for a possible successor -

• the low latency ram for N64 core

• an FPGA with an increase the number of Logic Units

• remove the restrictions with regards to the I/O board dual ram/analog and SNAC

It’s an interesting question. I’m pretty sure Terasic is well aware of the MiSTer. If I had to guess, the majority of their sales comes from the MiSTer community.

I think it all boils down to how profitable each DE10-Nano is for Terasic. If they make a good profit per unit, then of course they’d scale up and eventually release a successor. If that’s their business model then Terasic couldn’t care less what use case their FPGA machine is used for. As long as it’s profitable.

In terms of successors, wouldn’t be surprised if they intentionally made a $250-300 successor that double the logic gates and increases the RAM in a couple of years. This is all speculative though and coming from someone who has no development or manufacturing experience.

KremlingKuthroat19 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:31 pm It’s an interesting question. I’m pretty sure Terasic is well aware of the MiSTer. If I had to guess, the majority of their sales comes from the MiSTer community.

I think it all boils down to how profitable each DE10-Nano is for Terasic. If they make a good profit per unit, then of course they’d scale up and eventually release a successor. If that’s their business model then Terasic couldn’t care less what use case their FPGA machine is used for. As long as it’s profitable.

In terms of successors, wouldn’t be surprised if they intentionally made a $250-300 successor that double the logic gates and increases the RAM in a couple of years. This is all speculative though and coming from someone who has no development or manufacturing experience.

Pretty sure colleges and universities bought the bulk of DE-10 Nano boards.

chunky_tesco wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:50 am

KremlingKuthroat19 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 6:46 pm I keep seeing people saying a new FPGA board in the next 5-10 years, yet I think a successor board is sooner than people realize. The chip shortage really did screw things up, but I think we're about 2-4 years away from an affordable and new more powerful FPGA board that can run the N64/DS. There are already boards that exist that can run the N64 easily and are around $400-$500. If those boards go down in price to around the sweet spot of $250-300, then I don't see why a MiSTer 2 wouldn't be in the cards. Plus, Robert Piep has already expressed interest in both platforms, yet they can't fit on MiSTer, so the only thing that's in the way are current prices.

As for cores in complexity beyond the N64 and DS, it'll be interesting if a theoretical MiSTer 2 could run anything close to Dreamcast/PS2 level games. The manhours to reverse engineer those consoles would be huge so that's the biggest issue imo. It'd be interesting to see if AI could somehow be trained to decap these consoles and write out the code in Verlilog/HDL one day.

For reference, here is the board being used for the UltraFPG64: https://digilent.com/shop/nexys-video-a ... lications/

I wonder if anyone has been in contact with Terasic (surely they are aware of the DE-10's primary usage) to request features for a possible successor -

• the low latency ram for N64 core

• an FPGA with an increase the number of Logic Units

• remove the restrictions with regards to the I/O board dual ram/analog and SNAC

And fix their botched HDMI CEC implementation.

the_importer wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 10:11 pm

KremlingKuthroat19 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:31 pm It’s an interesting question. I’m pretty sure Terasic is well aware of the MiSTer. If I had to guess, the majority of their sales comes from the MiSTer community.

I think it all boils down to how profitable each DE10-Nano is for Terasic. If they make a good profit per unit, then of course they’d scale up and eventually release a successor. If that’s their business model then Terasic couldn’t care less what use case their FPGA machine is used for. As long as it’s profitable.

In terms of successors, wouldn’t be surprised if they intentionally made a $250-300 successor that double the logic gates and increases the RAM in a couple of years. This is all speculative though and coming from someone who has no development or manufacturing experience.

Pretty sure colleges and universities bought the bulk of DE-10 Nano boards.

That's debatable. It's probably 50/50 if I had to guess. There's a few hundred thousand MiSTers out there apparently according to various polls and orders from vendors' calculations. And I asked this about a year ago so there may be even more MiSTers out there. We don't have raw numbers though on how many have been sold to universities unless you know the numbers.

That doesn't sound right to me. This place would be way way busier if there were hundreds of thousands of users. Particularly with Terasic's short supply, I'd think 25K units is probably more in the right ballpark. That might even be overly optimistic.

Going by the 90-9-1 rule, there's 5000 members of this board and 7000 people on the discord so that would imply there's about 50-70k people in the entire MiSTer community. My guess is this is optimistic, since I wager the typical MiSTer user is more likely to register and interact online than a member of another community.

The most popular release of Mr Fusion, the setup tool for MiSTer, was downloaded 9,000 times. If you assume each download of Mr Fusion is a new user setting up MiSTer for the first time (a very optimistic assumption) then we're looking at about 25,000 installs. Of course, not everyone used Mr. Fusion, especially early in MiSTer's life, not everyone uses it today, and not every download accounts for a new user.

All said, I think 25k is a reasonable lower bound for number of MiSTers out there, and 75k is a reasonable upper bound. It would be interesting to know if anyone else knows of other data that could establish the size of the community.

I've ordered a MiSTer and it's on the way, so I'm yet to experience it in its full glory but I'm reading up on what you can do what it. Apologies if my comments here seem ignorant.

Would it theoretically be possible to create a hybrid N64 core? E.g. doing as much as you can within the FPGA and offloading some aspects to the ARM processor for software emulation. I know that kind of goes against the spirit of the project, but it may still be interesting to explore. Certainly some of the work that would be done could be expanded upon when we eventually get our hands on more complex FPGA kits. I

'm a programmer but I have little experience with FPGA HDL. Best I did with an FPGA was make it read SNES carts and dump them via USB, so I'd like to also use the MiSTer as a learning platform of sorts. Maybe in a few years I can actually contribute. :V

Natrox wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:13 pm Would it theoretically be possible to create a hybrid N64 core?

No. This has been attempted with Minimig with mixed results... so something more complex like the N64 chips won't work.

Best to assume the N64 will not be viable on the DE10 to avoid unecessary hype. We might get Saturn, which is already amazing.

I think we will get Saturn. I'm no dev, but apparently the Saturn is on par with the PSX in terms of its specs. The difference is there are so many custom chips that it'll take a lot more time to create a Saturn core. Also consider that the PSX is taking up on the whole roughly 92% of the FPGA logic gates. However, about 30% of that is due to the save state feature and last time I checked I think srg320 said the core would fit so at this point I think it's safe to assume it'll work. It'll just take a long time. I'd guess holiday 2023 imo.

Regarding hybrid emulation, even if it did work, imo it would kind of defeat the purpose of FPGA. The goal for FPGA imo is to 100% replicate the hardware in HDL to preserve for future generations. A hybrid approach opposes this. The next generation board will support N64 and DS for sure. We'll just have to be patient and wait for the next gen. Imo that'll be in 3-5 years. It could be longer, but I don't have a crystal ball.

There is about zero chance a board at the DE-10's price point will support N64 in decades. The clocks just aren't there.

UltraFP64 is "almost done" by now and he's working on a Nexys Video Artix-7 board which is around $475 today.
475 is really not that bad but this bring many questions:
- Will it be easy to migrate all the cores we have from one board to the other?
(this include the software but also the hardware [compatibilities with things like Jamma, RGB, etc])
- N64 is cool but what else is the Nexys Artix-7 capable of? is there enough power for Ps2, Dreamcast?
If no, do we really want to upgrade for a single console (and probably a handful of arcade cores)?

DuckSocker wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:42 am UltraFP64 is "almost done" by now and he's working on a Nexys Video Artix-7 board which is around $475 today.
475 is really not that bad but this bring many questions:
- Will it be easy to migrate all the cores we have from one board to the other?
(this include the software but also the hardware [compatibilities with things like Jamma, RGB, etc])
- N64 is cool but what else is the Nexys Artix-7 capable of? is there enough power for Ps2, Dreamcast?
If no, do we really want to upgrade for a single console (and probably a handful of arcade cores)?

The answer to the first question is no, it will not be. Porting the framework to any other board will be a tall task.

The answer to the second question is it's still up in the air weather or not the Artix7 will be powerful enough for the N64. It most definitely can't do Dreamcast and PS2.

rhester72 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 30, 2022 11:49 pm There is about zero chance a board at the DE-10's price point will support N64 in decades. The clocks just aren't there.

Decades is an absurdly hyperbolic take. The FPGA industry is growing by leaps and bounds because of machine learning. To think that Moore’s Law applies to everything but FPGAs is beyond silly.

Robert Piep mentioned it may be just a few years away on his interview with Arduino earlier this year and he certainly knows more than me. Btw, the MiSTer is over 5 years old now. I have a hard time believing FPGA technology will be the same 5-10 years from now.

I do agree that upgrading just for N64 is a hard sell. If you get N64, then you’ll also get DS so that’s something to consider. What’s the next cores that’d work on on a successor board? I’d guess Dreamcast is the likely choice. I wonder if the PSP or 3DS are low powered enough to run on a successor board too? Maybe it’d be wise to wait until there’s a board that could run all these cores or maybe the wait would be too long at that point?

lordoftime79 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:00 pm

SuperBabyHix wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:49 pm

lordoftime79 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:17 pm Fuck off - n64 pails in comparison... psx blows it out of the water! I think you guys may have rose tinted glasses!

Please try to remain civil. There is no need to be rude.

That is civil.

you sound like a biased fanboy. stay with the facts.
claiming the 32X is more powerful than a N64 is just nuts man. You sound like a troll.

KremlingKuthroat19 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:58 am

rhester72 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 30, 2022 11:49 pm There is about zero chance a board at the DE-10's price point will support N64 in decades. The clocks just aren't there.

Decades is an absurdly hyperbolic take. The FPGA industry is growing by leaps and bounds because of machine learning. To think that Moore’s Law applies to everything but FPGAs is beyond silly.

Robert Piep mentioned it may be just a few years away on his interview with Arduino earlier this year and he certainly knows more than me. Btw, the MiSTer is over 5 years old now. I have a hard time believing FPGA technology will be the same 5-10 years from now.

FPGA performance/capacity actually grew faster than Moore’s law until around 2012, when the Cyclone V of the de10 came out. In the 10 years since then, pretty much nothing has happened in the space of budget-tier general-purpose FPGAs. The “new” Cyclone 10 that came out 5 years ago was even a down-grade in terms of performance.

The FPGA market is growing fast atm, but it’s driven by AI, IoT and 5G boards mostly, not general-purpose boards like the de-10.
Hopefully that’ll change, but even if the performance and price is feasible, developer productivity doesn’t scale with Moore’s law, while the number of work hours required to implement the advanced systems a new platform allows probably do.