MiSTer FPGA Forum

If you're getting weird colors or dot crawl, it's possible your update_all script didn't grab the yc.txt

if so, you can grab it from https://raw.githubusercontent.com/MiSTe ... b18/yc.txt and put it next to your inis in media/fat

EDIT: just learned that yctxt needs to be added to downloader.ini if you're using filters, so just do that and run update_all again

Full size: https://i.imgur.com/lGMChXX.png

Figma link: https://www.figma.com/file/mvcOqKYTC8KV ... 2FC-Output

Here is bit of a PSA, current analogue IO boards (at least my Misteraddons board) don't have enough bandwidth to display PSX FMV smoothly. There are issues in-game also. Apparently this is a known issue but I couldn't find clear answers online. Thanks to some pointers in PSX thread I ran around like headless chicken all over the town last couple of days to confirm this. This is not specifically YC issue but I think a lot of people will use YC board with analogue IO board so I'll post it here.

Here is active YC board composite with IO board VGA on plasma tv. It could get very posterized. Using VGA pc monitor also looks like this posterization wise.

Here is composite on real PSX.

YC + IO board

Real PSX

Using YC board and direct video is good for PSX core. A little bit worse than real console but much much better.

PSX core was probably beyond expectation so I understand why analogue IO boards were not spec'd with higher VGA bandwidth. It's still a bummer I might have to replace it down the road.

Nice diagram, matijaerceg. Thanks for all the examples, KennyL. Can you specify what model of PS1 you're using? Color banding in early models with games like Tomb Raider are well documented, but I wonder if FMV playback differs across models. I only have an SCPH-1001 on hand. I need to go grab my 5501 from storage and do some comparisons.

Even as a kid, the compression artifacts bugged me before I knew what they were. I assumed the disc or lens was dirty and cleaned everything like crazy trying to get rid of them! Then my knowledgeable PC-gamer friend explained it all. The YC+Direct video combination has been pretty consistent with my memory, but I like that you are scrutinizing more closely.

Vicosku wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 3:10 pm

Nice diagram, matijaerceg. Thanks for all the examples, KennyL. Can you specify what model of PS1 you're using? Color banding in early models with games like Tomb Raider are well documented, but I wonder if FMV playback differs across models. I only have an SCPH-1001 on hand. I need to go grab my 5501 from storage and do some comparisons.

Even as a kid, the compression artifacts bugged me before I knew what they were. I assumed the disc or lens was dirty and cleaned everything like crazy trying to get rid of them! Then my knowledgeable PC-gamer friend explained it all. The YC+Direct video combination has been pretty consistent with my memory, but I like that you are scrutinizing more closely.

I using late model 1001. I dug it out after seeing that early model banding issue and SADLY my 1001 doesn't have banding issue. I have 3 PS1s and it would've been nice if one of them was wacked

Composite sure hides tons of artifacts but yeah still not super great. Raw FMVs are completely hellish. This FMV banding issue sure got me all loopy. I even extracted FMV frames using jpsxdec to see encoded macro blocking structure to compare against HDMI output bahaha.

This MDEC test image FPGAzumSpass shared is pretty illuminating to me.

Near black steppy blocks you see even on HDMI is due to near blacks not getting rounded up enough. You can see on the dark area of cloud on screen right or just jack brightness all the up. Highs are also a bit higher. The sun disappear sooner on real HW as you reduce the brightness all the way down. Basically FMVs on PSX core and Duckstation have higher contrast and could lead to a little bit more posterization, which analogue IO board amplifies a lot. I'm posting this here instead of PSX thread because I don't want to bug him about this anymore hehheh...

Interesting. Thanks. I did a quick search of the thread and don't see any discussion of the hdmi_limited mister.ini option. Have you played with this option when using HDMI out to a modern display, as well as with Direct Video? The near black issues you mention make me wonder about that. If I remember correctly, hdmi_limited was added specifically for direct video and I don't know if it does anything on modern displays. RGB Full vs limited is certainly something that drives me crazy when hooking up my PC to my LG CX Oled, and I've been meaning to investigate what is ideal for MiSTer there as well. (Edit: I believe the 16-255 option was all that was added for Direct Video adapters, not the regular 16-235 limited setting.)

I used full when testing VGA and direct video but that 16-255 option is correct option for direct video? I'll definitely try that next time thanks. Well, near black is still lower on full so I don't think it can be compensated with HDMI range. I also took direct screenshot on Mister and pictures show darker near black.

HDMI is madness. I'm never sure if it's set right. I have to load up test images every time I change settings. HDR is even more harrowing. Learned a lot about how C2 handles it while testing Mister HDR and it's just so needlessly complex protocol. I sooooo happy to have great composite option now for my dinky crt where I just plug in dumb cable and things just work. And it looks better!*

*to me to me to me

Sorry, 16-255 is for some adapters. More documentation. Again, I'm looking forward to MisterAddons' new solution so that we can hopefully have a more consistent and fully featured analog out solution and not deal with all these inconsistencies anymore.
https://mister-devel.github.io/MkDocs_M ... rectvideo/

Yeah, I have a hard time with my LG CX with my computer. I'll have things set up and looking good, and then the next time I switch over from my monitor it will look completely different. Desaturated colors and incorrect black levels at random. Some problem with automatic setting handshakes or TV/PC updates, I guess. I also have bad results with the RGB full settings places like HDTVTest recommend looking awful. XboX Series X looks fine with the limited settings its menu recommends, so I tried to duplicate the results on PC and am mostly okay with what I see now. It's nice how simple and predictable CRTs are in comparison.

This morning I played around with Retroarch and got it looking pretty great - better than is currently possible with MiSTer. 4K, 120hz, Retroarch built-in flicker-free black frame insertion and HDR, and shaders like CRT-Royale. I can see how people would enjoy this, and the screenshots you can take certainly look good viewed on a 6-inch phone screen. I still prefer to play on CRT with S-video and composite (and MiSTer). Predictably, I spent the whole time this morning messing with settings instead of playing - just like I have many, many times with emulators over the past 25+ years. With MiSTer on YC I've actually been playing SO MANY games lately.

When I load up Final Fantasy IV and am in the underworld on composite, the magma glows with an intensity I can almost feel. So many highlights in pre-rendered backgrounds on PSX pulse with an intensity I have yet to see HDR on a modern display match. The Lifestream and street lights in Final Fantasy VII, or the snow in the snow town are some examples that come to mind. Leaving dithering on in FF7 and using composite in the battle scenes really helps trick your brain into believing there are mountains in the background instead of random brown chunks. I would rather see mountains than "Correct" brown squares. So often I find myself just admiring the magic that is shown on CRT. On modern displays I may think, "Wow, that red sure does pop", but I mostly think "This looks old" rather than "This looks beautiful."

Some say composite acts like a meat grinder to an RGB signal. What can I say? Sometimes I like eating the sausage more than seeing how the sausage was made.

Man I totally hear you. Modern TVs get real pain in the ass. My C2 looks nice in HDR (after tons of hair pulling) but pretty underwhelming to me in SDR compared to my old ass plasma and dinky 13" composite Trinitron. Even for modern games my plasma still looks more pleasing to me than C2 even with HDR, especially when shockingly large amount of recent games don't have HDR or badly implemented. I'm constantly second guessing if HDR is on or not. I was pretty befuddled when I set C2 color temperature to warm 50 as recommended and it just looks like applying yellow filter. Increasing saturation just looks garish. Whereas in plasma and crt, pushing saturation feels like stoking fire, things get hot! Magma is burning hot! It probably helps that plasmas and crts actually do get hot ha. It feels like LED light bulbs vs. incandescent light bulbs. Lights that feel mechanical vs. lights with actual temperature.

Retro game pixel rendering wise, crts just can't be beat. I love my plasma but it's still an HD display with fat pixels, which are fine. But those crt pixels are so yummy. It's so interesting to see how a square pixel morphs into different shapes base on different types and brands of tubes. I love how pixels looks like they're made of tiny light bulbs. It's wild how composite turns Genesis and even more so Saturn dithered mess into actual transparencies. Love how a few dots of pixels could give extra dimension of depth. Really magical. Ever since I got Y/C board, I've been spending more time just surfing around games randomly and watch attract modes. Sooo satisfying and therapeutic

Mister HDR is pretty nice but I gotta say Mister filters are just too basic. I haven't used Retroarch seriously for ages so didn't know they added those options. I gotta try them. Have you used Mame crt filters? They are absolute bonkers. You can adjust scanlines and masks but also blooming, bowing, color bleeding/splitting, vignetting, edge rounding, flickering, rolling interference, etc. etc. Wild stuff.

I'm having an issue with my CRT setup, using S-Video with Antonio's active adapter.

In my mister.ini, I have vga_mode=svideo, and one CRT which is working correctly, but with another CRT, I'm not getting chroma (image is B&W). This only happens with vga_mode set to svideo. If I set vga_mode to cvbs, I do get color, albiet with a very low quality signal. I also encounter the same issue when using an RCA to S-video adapter (one TV is fine, the other isn't). I was hoping that the active adapter would correct the issue, but that isn't the case.

Has anyone else run into a similar issue, or does anyone have any thoughts?

GothicMoon wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:02 am

I'm also having the same issue with that adapter where composite works but s-video does not. Antonio was very helpful in troubleshooting with me though, which is much appreciated! Hopefully swapping out that resistor fixes it. Won't be able to test that until next month though when I have access to a soldering iron. I'm just glad composite and s-video are getting community support, since those inputs on a CRT are necessary for preserving the original feel of many old games imo

Just adding a quick reply to my old message to give an update: I managed to fix it! The problem with the adapter wasn't a sync signal issue or capacitor, but rather the output luma and chroma signals were swapped. I made a custom s-video cable with the pinout mirrored on one end only and now everything works perfectly

GothicMoon wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:55 am

GothicMoon wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:02 am

I'm also having the same issue with that adapter where composite works but s-video does not. Antonio was very helpful in troubleshooting with me though, which is much appreciated! Hopefully swapping out that resistor fixes it. Won't be able to test that until next month though when I have access to a soldering iron. I'm just glad composite and s-video are getting community support, since those inputs on a CRT are necessary for preserving the original feel of many old games imo

Just adding a quick reply to my old message to give an update: I managed to fix it! The problem with the adapter wasn't a sync signal issue or capacitor, but rather the output luma and chroma signals were swapped. I made a custom s-video cable with the pinout mirrored on one end only and now everything works perfectly

Thats great!, but a bit alarming that it was swapped in the hardware, I hope this has been addressed on future batches and that you were compensated.

Yes. I am compensating for this case. The first 4 boards had this problem. You can choose between half refund or I send a new board. In both cases you don't have tu return the old board.

MikeS1 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:19 pm

GothicMoon wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:55 am

GothicMoon wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:02 am

I'm also having the same issue with that adapter where composite works but s-video does not. Antonio was very helpful in troubleshooting with me though, which is much appreciated! Hopefully swapping out that resistor fixes it. Won't be able to test that until next month though when I have access to a soldering iron. I'm just glad composite and s-video are getting community support, since those inputs on a CRT are necessary for preserving the original feel of many old games imo

Just adding a quick reply to my old message to give an update: I managed to fix it! The problem with the adapter wasn't a sync signal issue or capacitor, but rather the output luma and chroma signals were swapped. I made a custom s-video cable with the pinout mirrored on one end only and now everything works perfectly

Thats great!, but a bit alarming that it was swapped in the hardware, I hope this has been addressed on future batches and that you were compensated.

If you opt for fix yourself and half refund, here you have pictures. There are 2 track cuts and 2 wires for the fix.

Of course if you are not able to fix yourself I'll send another board.

GothicMoon wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:55 am

GothicMoon wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:02 am

I'm also having the same issue with that adapter where composite works but s-video does not. Antonio was very helpful in troubleshooting with me though, which is much appreciated! Hopefully swapping out that resistor fixes it. Won't be able to test that until next month though when I have access to a soldering iron. I'm just glad composite and s-video are getting community support, since those inputs on a CRT are necessary for preserving the original feel of many old games imo

Just adding a quick reply to my old message to give an update: I managed to fix it! The problem with the adapter wasn't a sync signal issue or capacitor, but rather the output luma and chroma signals were swapped. I made a custom s-video cable with the pinout mirrored on one end only and now everything works perfectly

antoniovillena wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 3:38 pm

Yes. I am compensating for this case. The first 4 boards had this problem. You can choose between half refund or I send a new board. In both cases you don't have tu return the old board.

A new board would be great, much appreciated

Ok. I've send a PM. Reply it with your address.

GothicMoon wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:34 pm

antoniovillena wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 3:38 pm

Yes. I am compensating for this case. The first 4 boards had this problem. You can choose between half refund or I send a new board. In both cases you don't have tu return the old board.

A new board would be great, much appreciated

First of all, great work on this module, MikeS1. Playing on a consumer TV with no dot crawl creates a near 1:1 replica of how I remember playing many of these systems.

For some cores, though, I'm getting black and white output with my encoder board: namely PSX, Atari Lynx, Atari 7800, and Intellivision. I understand the Lynx may not have support for this at the moment, just tossing it in there since I tested it.

The other ones I tested glow in living color and look great. Not sure if there's a setting somewhere I need to tweak or if it's a hardware combo that's causing this.

My MiSTer hardware set-up:
IO Board -> VGA cable -> MikeS Active YC Encoder (switch set to 'IO Board') -> RCA cable -> Consumer CRT
SOG switch is off (not sure if this matters)
(my Direct video is hooked up to a monitor via HDMI since the OSD can be unreadable for some cores on CRT)

My .ini settings (maybe TMI for some of these):
forced_scandoubler=0
vga_mode=svideo
ntsc_mode=0
composite_sync=1
vga_scaler=0
vscale_mode=1
direct_video=0
vga_sog=0

Cores I've tested and their composite output on a Consumer CRT

Black & White:
Intellivision
Atari 7800
Atari Lynx
PSX

Color:
Colecovision
Atari 5200
Game Boy
Super Game Boy
Game Boy Color
GBA
NES
Super NES
Game Gear
Master System
Genesis
Sega CD
32X
TurboDuo
Neo Geo

Any help troubleshooting this would be much appreciated!

atarieyes wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 6:55 pm

PSX

For some reason the build with Y/C implemented still hasn't been released on main as far as I know. You could try unstable build PSX_unstable_20230301, which is running fine for me.

https://github.com/MiSTer-unstable-nigh ... r/releases

Lynx is actually updated (You need to set it to 240p mode and then select the YC timing option), Intellivision is released as well, just waiting for the PR to be accepted.

Kitrinx and Robert own the 7800 and PSX so it will depend on them to release the updated framework, but in the meantime you can still access the YC cores for the ones which have not been updated.

KennyL wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 2:40 am

You could try unstable build PSX_unstable_20230301, which is running fine for me.

https://github.com/MiSTer-unstable-nigh ... r/releases

That did it! I was testing with the latest stable build and the YC build from the encoder github. Thanks!

MikeS1 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:41 am

Lynx is actually updated (You need to set it to 240p mode and then select the YC timing option), Intellivision is released as well, just waiting for the PR to be accepted.

Excellent, thanks!

MikeS1 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:23 pm

Here's attempting to change a standard genesis to look "better" or have timing that closer to the NTSC standard.

A real console has all the nasty artifacts so this is just an exercise

genesistiming.png

It's good to know I'm not crazy after I noticed these artifacts. I'm all for visual accuracy, but I'll add to those saying it would be nice to have this as an option. Getting a cleaner composite image means still benefiting from the blending and smoothing effects.

Also, the GB and GBA cores still have these artifacts, where I don't think they're necessary or even accurate, but I can always be wrong.

Anyway, I was very pleasantly surprised to see the cores being merged into the mainline. Very very cool.

momo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:13 pm

MikeS1 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:23 pm

Here's attempting to change a standard genesis to look "better" or have timing that closer to the NTSC standard.

A real console has all the nasty artifacts so this is just an exercise

genesistiming.png

It's good to know I'm not crazy after I noticed these artifacts. I'm all for visual accuracy, but I'll add to those saying it would be nice to have this as an option. Getting a cleaner composite image means still benefiting from the blending and smoothing effects.

Also, the GB and GBA cores still have these artifacts, where I don't think they're necessary or even accurate, but I can always be wrong.

Anyway, I was very pleasantly surprised to see the cores being merged into the mainline. Very very cool.

I got that test build of GenesisYC from discord but would love to see it officially implemented. Also would be nice to have it in MegaCD, 32x, and SMS cores..... Interestingly, Genesis Plus GX emulator for Wii has very clean and stable composite and I found out the other night that it has composite filter option to have more authentic composite artifacts. Sonic trees are properly split heh heh.

MikeS also posted pictures of similar adjustments for arcade core, which would be super nice to have.

Congratulations on the good work on the composite video output.

I have verified that in the msx core (OCM) when I activate the pal mode (SETSMART -D2 command) the image is completely blurred. Is there any way to fix it?

On the other hand, in the core of msx1/2 the image is in black and white, I supose that it is not yet adapted to the new framework.

Regards.

I designed this simple 3D printed snap-together case for mikes1's active YC breakout board, in case anyone is interested. It is published on Thingiverse.

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5976719

KennyL wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:10 am

momo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:13 pm

MikeS1 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:23 pm

Here's attempting to change a standard genesis to look "better" or have timing that closer to the NTSC standard.

A real console has all the nasty artifacts so this is just an exercise

genesistiming.png

It's good to know I'm not crazy after I noticed these artifacts. I'm all for visual accuracy, but I'll add to those saying it would be nice to have this as an option. Getting a cleaner composite image means still benefiting from the blending and smoothing effects.

Also, the GB and GBA cores still have these artifacts, where I don't think they're necessary or even accurate, but I can always be wrong.

Anyway, I was very pleasantly surprised to see the cores being merged into the mainline. Very very cool.

I got that test build of GenesisYC from discord but would love to see it officially implemented. Also would be nice to have it in MegaCD, 32x, and SMS cores..... Interestingly, Genesis Plus GX emulator for Wii has very clean and stable composite and I found out the other night that it has composite filter option to have more authentic composite artifacts. Sonic trees are properly split heh heh.

MikeS also posted pictures of similar adjustments for arcade core, which would be super nice to have.

Is the discord the only place to get the test build of the GenesisYC core?

I love the NES/SNES/PCE/PS1 YC cores over composite, but I've been hoping to see these implementations for a bit cleaner output for the Genesis/32X/GBA/etc cores.

Anyways my thanks to MikeS1's work on all of these. They're phenomenal to have.

Been looking into this now since i picked up a small crt monitor that only has s-video input. Do i need a special convertor? I tried a small adaptor from amazon that you plug the vga cable from the i/o board into, then use an svideo cable from that to the monitor. I made the changes to the ini but i dont get any picture at all, no menu etc nothing. Im aware i need the special cores but i don't even get the main menu at the moment... any ideas?

MikkyTee wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 2:45 pm

Been looking into this now since i picked up a small crt monitor that only has s-video input. Do i need a special convertor? I tried a small adaptor from amazon that you plug the vga cable from the i/o board into, then use an svideo cable from that to the monitor. I made the changes to the ini but i dont get any picture at all, no menu etc nothing. Im aware i need the special cores but i don't even get the main menu at the moment... any ideas?

Yes, you need a special adapter. You can buy one from most of the trusted vendors (Mister Addons, Ultimate MiSTer, Antonio Villena, etc..)

You no longer need special cores as these changes have been integrated into Main MiSTer and you only have to make some ini changes for everything to work.

MikkyTee wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 2:45 pm

Been looking into this now since i picked up a small crt monitor that only has s-video input. Do i need a special convertor? I tried a small adaptor from amazon that you plug the vga cable from the i/o board into, then use an svideo cable from that to the monitor. I made the changes to the ini but i dont get any picture at all, no menu etc nothing. Im aware i need the special cores but i don't even get the main menu at the moment... any ideas?

That adapter might not have been wired correctly, but if you got it from Amazon then it should be easy enough to return. If you have a spare S-Video cable and can strip wires (a nail clipper will work in a pinch if you're careful), you can get a VGA/DB15 breakout board and wire up an adapter yourself, see here (the luma/chroma might be reversed in the pics, so you might need to experiment):
https://www.retrorgb.com/how-to-hook-up ... osite.html

Or just buy an adapter from one of the vendors mentioned. You'd only need the passive adapter if you're only using S-Video.

Ok fellas, thanks for the details. I might go ahead and try the adaptor and see if i can get this working. Cheers

green_onion wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 12:49 pm

Is the discord the only place to get the test build of the GenesisYC core?

I love the NES/SNES/PCE/PS1 YC cores over composite, but I've been hoping to see these implementations for a bit cleaner output for the Genesis/32X/GBA/etc cores.

Anyways my thanks to MikeS1's work on all of these. They're phenomenal to have.

Here is the link if you have discord account.
https://discord.com/channels/6479093974 ... 9741791342

I'm really not a fan of huge amount of discussions of open source projects are done in closed off places like discord. You can't even see what's in there if you don't have account.