MiSTer FPGA Forum

People using LG C9-C2 and G9-G2. You can force SDR color tone in the hidden menu by highlighting picture mode and using code 1113111. Fixes any color errors. Just be sure to use proper neutral picture settings so Game mode with the following settings:
OLED Light: 100
Contrast: 100
H/V Sharpness: 0
Color: 50
Tint: 0
Color gamut: Auto
White balance: Warm 2
OLED Motion Pro: On or High (depending on your TV model)
All enhancements off

Most shadow masks give a bad tint to the picture. Try AG-1 option in the map Shadow_Masks/Simple (Monochrome)/RetroTink it has no noticable tint and looks like an aperture grille.

Perhaps people like to try the following internal scale settings:
Horz Filter: No interpolation or CRT - Simulation/CRT Simulation (S-Video)_H (works like a sharper composite blend)
Vert Filter: Adaptivive scanlines/SLA_Dk_000_Br_100
Scanfilter: No interpolation or Sharp interpolation (depending on scale Integer vs non-Integer)
Gamma correction: Off or gamma_110 (I prefer off because a higher gamma is darker)
Shadow mask: AG-1

tronic307 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:59 am

@Natrox I don't know what happened to the HLG option, but now it's dim and colorless. No amount of tone mapping is even brightening it up. I guess the critics won, because It doesn't even look 'just' like SDR at this point, it's bland. Please don't do that to the DCI setting, leave it the way it is. It's Arcadish and I had been trying to get that look for years. If there's a way to get it back to the way it was before, please tell me exactly how. If people wanted HDR to look precisely like SDR they should have just stuck with SDR. Otherwise, what's the point? I came here originally to praise this addition because I had foreseen something like this, but I'm only one voice.

I am not sure what you are referring to. I have not made any changes to HDR recently, aside from moving HLG to hdr=1 and DCI P3 to hdr=2 (BT2020 was removed).

Natrox wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:37 am

I am not sure what you are referring to. I have not made any changes to HDR recently, aside from moving HLG to hdr=1 and DCI P3 to hdr=2 (BT2020 was removed).

I greatly appreciate your contribution of HDR and am sorry if I came off as harsh but there have been changes.

To explain: When HLG was on option 3 it still registered as HDR10 on my TV and was bright and (maybe too) colorful. All three options came up for me as HDR10. When HLG moved to option HDR=1 and came up as true HLG on my set, it appeared dark and underexposed. Literally, like night and day.

I then thought it may have been altered in response to critics who may have described it as too bright and saturated but it could have simply retained the same luminance values but in HLG instead of HDR10. Another member of the MiSTer FPGA team could have tweaked the HDMI metadata as well. I posted pics of the advanced settings menu to illustrate the difference in the appearance of the three formats, the shade of the cyan background and gray border show major differences. The cyan is more like teal now in HLG and the gray border is dark.

We thankfully have picture controls in the ini but they all seem to be maxed out at the default settings with HLG. FoxbatStargazer mentioned a few posts back that they noticed a change as well. Don't get me wrong, I don't think HDR should look exactly like SDR. I know white=R+G+B so the saturation is tied to peak luminance. I understand our color mapping choices are limited. Even if color-matched there would be a greater sense of light and shadow with HDR, but we would at least need control over peak and mid-tones if we have any hope of color matching, and that exact capability doesn't currently exist.

tronic307 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:00 pm

Natrox wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:37 am

I am not sure what you are referring to. I have not made any changes to HDR recently, aside from moving HLG to hdr=1 and DCI P3 to hdr=2 (BT2020 was removed).

I greatly appreciate your contribution of HDR and am sorry if I came off as harsh but there have been changes.

To explain: When HLG was on option 3 it still registered as HDR10 on my TV and was bright and (maybe too) colorful. All three options came up for me as HDR10. When HLG moved to option HDR=1 and came up as true HLG on my set, it appeared dark and underexposed. Literally, like night and day.

I then thought it may have been altered in response to critics who may have described it as too bright and saturated but it could have simply retained the same luminance values but in HLG instead of HDR10. Another member of the MiSTer FPGA team could have tweaked the HDMI metadata as well. I posted pics of the advanced settings menu to illustrate the difference in the appearance of the three formats, the shade of the cyan background and gray border show major differences. The cyan is more like teal now in HLG and the gray border is dark.

We thankfully have picture controls in the ini but they all seem to be maxed out at the default settings with HLG. FoxbatStargazer mentioned a few posts back that they noticed a change as well. Don't get me wrong, I don't think HDR should look exactly like SDR. I know white=R+G+B so the saturation is tied to peak luminance. I understand our color mapping choices are limited. Even if color-matched there would be a greater sense of light and shadow with HDR, but we would at least need control over peak and mid-tones if we have any hope of color matching, and that exact capability doesn't currently exist. I'd make my own build if I could, it can't be much harder than rom hacking or HTML.

Thank you for the elaboration, and no worries. I want to help figure out how this happened. Certainly I would never listen to critics complaining about overbrightness. :V
Brightness is kind of the point after all. The only criticism I did listen to was internal feedback about the setting being a bit too complicated, which is why I ended up trimming the fat (BT2020; it only looked good with heavy tweaking or a professional display - DCI P3 has better overall reception and still uses the same tech).

Other than me, nobody else has touched these settings, so we can rule that out at least. However there is one interesting thing in what you mentioned that gives me a clue; you mentioned the TV showed HDR10 when you used mode 3.

It might actually be the case that you were never using HLG in the first place. Before HLG was implemented, HDR mode 3 was used for HDR10 without color conversion. It's was supposed to be a troubleshooting mode since it looks incorrect on most displays.

HLG on mode 3 never made it into the official release, it was only ever present in the unstable nighties. When I moved it to mode 1, and removed BT2020, I was in time for the new release.

I think this is what happened. Beside the mode shuffling, I have also modified HDR metadata to tell the TV to expect 1000 nits instead of the original 10000. 10000 nits worked fine for some, but it caused clipped colors on a lot of displays.

Here's an idea, if you'd like to give it a try:

• I will create a test version of the main binary for you with several modes:
  ~ Mode 1, HLG but with 10000 nits
  ~ Mode 2, DCI P3 with 10000 nits
  ~ Mode 3, Original mode 3 with 10000 nits
  ~ Mode 4, Original mode 3 with 1000 nits.
• You can try these out and see if any of them look like what you remember.
• If we figure out the correct mode for you, I'll give you another binary that provides your mode of choice on slot 3. I will keep this binary up-to-date, though you will need to install it yourself after any update.
• I will then see what I can do to get your desired mode back into the official build.

How does that sound? Let me know if you'd be willing to give it a shot.

Regarding the color controls in the ini, most are at a neutral position except for saturation. Due to technical limitations we cannot do oversaturation.

Also, how does DCI P3 look to you? Is it super far off from your original mode 3? It is supposed to be fairly similar, except with slightly too much saturation, which can be tweaked.

That's very generous, how cool. I'd love to test a build, thanks! I wouldn't need OG mode 3 back if we could get regular HLG brighter, it might have potential. It's almost there.

I'd say if people were having difficulty with 10000 nits we could try 4000 nits for the high figure. I wonder if a higher MaxFALL like 520-550 nits would do anything to brighten the mid-tones because I've had to lower the gamma to 1.8 to try to match SDR at a gamma of 2.4. I re-calibrated my TV so that BT.1886 correlates to the 2.4 gamma setting instead of 2.2 so I could lower the gamma further, but it works for me.

O.G. Rec. 2020 Mode 1 never clicked for me but I think it would be cool if we had BT.2020 primaries. I'm elated with Mode 2, which is probably why I balked at first at the change from Mode 3 to Mode 1. I feared maybe Mode 2 would get toned down next, my bad. The DCI option doesn't duplicate SDR but I like the look. It may have been a happy accident the picture reminds me of a brighter version of old phosphorescent CRT arcade monitors, which had high gamma and saturation. I thought that was the point at first so I never reduced the color. I acknowledge that it's more saturated than SDR but I take the greater peak white and color volume into account. Old Mode 3 wasn't as arcade-like as Mode 2 but more like Sony CRT monitors or later WEGA TVs.

So, 550 MaxFALL and 4000 nits MaxCLL for the experimental modes if you can so we can see if we can make the HLG look like SDR on a BVM on DMT.

Hey Natrox, I think options got removed and shuffled around too hastily. BT2020 option was barely being tested and worked on. Test size for making that decision was way way too low. I read through your discussion about it in discord awhile back where it felt like you got pushed over by Kitrinx and Sentient6 if I remember correctly. Making that kind of decision in a chatroom amongst just couple of people is a terrible idea. To be fair, I also feel HDR got publicly released too soon. BT2020 could've used some more baking time in fork to see if it's actually bad or not. I'm not asking you to bring it back but please don't get forced into cutting more options especially in a chatroom where barely anyone get to chime in at the time of discussion.

There is hdmi range mismatch happening on releases after HLG is moved to hdr=1. When hdmi_limited is set to 1 (limited) and my LG C2 hdmi range is set to Auto or Limited, black and white are crushed/clipped leading to off color. Setting hdmi range on tv to Full gives proper image, which is incorrect behavior.

I tried MiSTer_unstable_20230104_1602a0 build which has HLG at hdr=3 and hdmi range behave properly. Setting Mister limited/TV limited and Mister full/TV full give proper black and white levels.

tronic307 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:01 am

That's very generous, how cool. I'd love to test a build, thanks! I wouldn't need OG mode 3 back if we could get regular HLG brighter, it might have potential. It's almost there.

I'd say if people were having difficulty with 10000 nits we could try 4000 nits for the high figure. I wonder if a higher MaxFALL like 520-550 nits would do anything to brighten the mid-tones because I've had to lower the gamma to 1.8 to try to match SDR at a gamma of 2.4. I re-calibrated my TV so that BT.1886 correlates to the 2.4 gamma setting instead of 2.2 so I could lower the gamma further, but it works for me.

.....

I'll set it up shortly and let you know!

The thing with the metadata is that it does not actually control the brightness of the picture. It is a suggestion to the TV, and TVs don't really use it very much. Setting it to 10000 caused problems because 10000 is a valid value used in film production, whereas 1000 is the common metadata value. Changing MaxFALL around makes no difference to the picture, I pretty much just set it to 400 since it was the suggestion.

TVs will make their own choices using the metadata only as a hint. For example, although it's set to 1000 nits, my TV cannot display more than 800. Yet, I do not have any clipping. This is all because the HDR landscape is kind of a mess and there's still a standards war going on (Dolby Vision v. HDR10). TVs just do what seems to look right and what is compatible with the most common format.

Making HLG brighter isn't really possible with our setup. The only way to get an overall brighter image is to mess with the brightness/contrast controls in the INI, but you risk raising black levels if you do that. That being said, I will give you a test build so you can see what it does for you.

For DCI P3, I generally recommend only lowering saturation slightly, 0.9₀.95. Contrast can also be played with to get closer to SDR, but I also think it looks fine on its own despite the color differences. DCI P3 has more brightness potential than HLG thanks to the increased contrast and gamma. I have some sub-1 gamma filters floating around as well that can be tried.

KennyL wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:17 am

Hey Natrox, I think options got removed and shuffled around too hastily. BT2020 option was barely being tested and worked on. Test size for making that decision was way way too low. I read through your discussion about it in discord awhile back where it felt like you got pushed over by Kitrinx and Sentient6 if I remember correctly. Making that kind of decision in a chatroom amongst just couple of people is a terrible idea. To be fair, I also feel HDR got publicly released too soon. BT2020 could've used some more baking time in fork to see if it's actually bad or not. I'm not asking you to bring it back but please don't get forced into cutting more options especially in a chatroom where barely anyone get to chime in at the time of discussion.

You may be right, I was also not a huge fan of removing it, but then again I did find out from a lot of people that DCI P3 just performed better.
There isn't much work that can be done other than setting the right matrices. The actual HDR options we have are fairly limited.
For one, the CSC matrix is 3x4, which does not allow for full color manipulation (we'd need 4x4, the hardware isn't capable).
Other HDR functionality is unavailable. We'd need HDMI 2.0, but the chip is limited to 1.4 (I believe, could be 1.3).
HDR is already not an officially supported feature in the HDMI spec we have to use, so we did what we could.

BT2020 was never really going to look any better. The content (old games) simply do not have the color range to nicely map to this colorspace on the vast majority of TVs. The only way to improve it would be to add color LUTs to the FPGA, which is not going to happen since FPGA fabric is limited.

KennyL wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:52 am

There is hdmi range mismatch happening on releases after HLG is moved to hdr=1. When hdmi_limited is set to 1 (limited) and my LG C2 hdmi range is set to Auto or Limited, black and white are crushed/clipped leading to off color. Setting hdmi range on tv to Full gives proper image, which is incorrect behavior.

I tried MiSTer_unstable_20230104_1602a0 build which has HLG at hdr=3 and hdmi range behave properly. Setting Mister limited/TV limited and Mister full/TV full give proper black and white levels.

That's strange, I will have to look into it. Might be a small bug related to packing the CSC data.
I'll investigate this, thank you for letting me know.

Thanks, Natrox. For SDR to HDR conversion, I've heard 400 and 1000 nits being tossed around, but I've also heard 550 and 4000, especially for HLG. I don't remember where I read it at the moment, it's just a curiosity, but I'd just like to exhaust that avenue before seeking other solutions. I tried those numbers on Retroarch and it enhanced both color and mid-tone levels and the stock settings of 200/1000 looked pretty much like MiSTer HLG looks now. I'm just curious if there might be some chance of a correlation.

Natrox wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:50 pm

I think this is what happened. Beside the mode shuffling, I have also modified HDR metadata to tell the TV to expect 1000 nits instead of the original 10000. 10000 nits worked fine for some, but it caused clipped colors on a lot of displays.

tronic307 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:01 am

I'd say if people were having difficulty with 10000 nits we could try 4000 nits for the high figure. I wonder if a higher MaxFALL like 520-550 nits would do anything to brighten the mid-tones because I've had to lower the gamma to 1.8 to try to match SDR at a gamma of 2.4. I re-calibrated my TV so that BT.1886 correlates to the 2.4 gamma setting instead of 2.2 so I could lower the gamma further, but it works for me.

As far as nits/brightness of the HDR signal, I'm not sure about various monitors, but the Asus that my mister is hooked up to has the following (this is what I believe they each mean but I'm not positive):

PQ Basic - HDR nits will be mapped in a linear fashion over the range of the display
PQ Clip - All nits above the range of the display will be at max brightness
PQ Curve - HDR brightness will be mapped on a curve so that high end nits still get brighter toward the maximum but at a decreasing rate

To me, it seems like the HDR signal should be set to 2000 nits (above the range of most monitors) and then let the individual user adjust the monitor's settings to get the results they want. Alternatively, if it were possible to have an option to specify nits, that would be great.

tronic307 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 2:06 am

Thanks, Natrox. For SDR to HDR conversion, I've heard 400 and 1000 nits being tossed around, but I've also heard 550 and 4000, especially for HLG. I don't remember where I read it at the moment, it's just a curiosity, but I'd just like to exhaust that avenue before seeking other solutions. I tried those numbers on Retroarch and it enhanced both color and mid-tone levels and the stock settings of 200/1000 looked pretty much like MiSTer HLG looks now. I'm just curious if there might be some chance of a correlation.
20230208_062918889_iOS.jpg

Unfortunately their method of HDR is way more sophisticated, using shaders and proper HDR controls and whatnot. We simply can't do that on MiSTer.
The TV is chiefly responsible for handling the signal, since all we do is add a metadata block. HDR on MiSTer does not change the actual HDMI output.

The 400 nits value is used for MaxFALL, which is supposed to be an average of the entire frame. However, it is static. I picked 400 based on a number of reasons, but basically, it is like a ratio of dim-to-bright.

Consider a screen with 50% completely black, and 50% of 1000 nits. The average would be 500 nits, so that would be a good MaxFALL value.

The 400 nits would handle:

• 10% * 1000 nits (100) + 40% of 200 nits (80) + 50% of 440 nits (220) = 400 nits
• 20% * 1000 nits (200) + 80% of 250 nits (200) = 400 nits
• 90% * 400 nits (360) + 5% of 600 nits (30) + 5% of 200 nits (10) = 400 nits
  ...etc...
  As a standard pick for MaxFALL it satisfies a lot of different scenarios. However whether the TV uses it or not, is entirely up to the TV and not predictable.

In short, it's not like the paperwhite value used in other applications. All we have in metadata is MaxCLL (peak) and MaxFALL (avg).

thisisamigaspeaking wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:16 pm

Natrox wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:50 pm

I think this is what happened. Beside the mode shuffling, I have also modified HDR metadata to tell the TV to expect 1000 nits instead of the original 10000. 10000 nits worked fine for some, but it caused clipped colors on a lot of displays.

tronic307 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:01 am

I'd say if people were having difficulty with 10000 nits we could try 4000 nits for the high figure. I wonder if a higher MaxFALL like 520-550 nits would do anything to brighten the mid-tones because I've had to lower the gamma to 1.8 to try to match SDR at a gamma of 2.4. I re-calibrated my TV so that BT.1886 correlates to the 2.4 gamma setting instead of 2.2 so I could lower the gamma further, but it works for me.

As far as nits/brightness of the HDR signal, I'm not sure about various monitors, but the Asus that my mister is hooked up to has the following (this is what I believe they each mean but I'm not positive):

PQ Basic - HDR nits will be mapped in a linear fashion over the range of the display
PQ Clip - All nits above the range of the display will be at max brightness
PQ Curve - HDR brightness will be mapped on a curve so that high end nits still get brighter toward the maximum but at a decreasing rate

To me, it seems like the HDR signal should be set to 2000 nits (above the range of most monitors) and then let the individual user adjust the monitor's settings to get the results they want. Alternatively, if it were possible to have an option to specify nits, that would be great.

The curve approach is what most TVs use, but not all of them use it on all ranges of nits. For example, if I set it to 2000 nits in metadata, it may look fine on 90% of TVs, and clipped on 10% of TVs. TVs just don't have these more advanced HDR controls.

I am however, indeed, working on an option to specify your own nits value for metadata - for the people who find that metadata has effect. It will allow you to set MaxCLL and MaxFALL.

KennyL wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:52 am

There is hdmi range mismatch happening on releases after HLG is moved to hdr=1. When hdmi_limited is set to 1 (limited) and my LG C2 hdmi range is set to Auto or Limited, black and white are crushed/clipped leading to off color. Setting hdmi range on tv to Full gives proper image, which is incorrect behavior.

I tried MiSTer_unstable_20230104_1602a0 build which has HLG at hdr=3 and hdmi range behave properly. Setting Mister limited/TV limited and Mister full/TV full give proper black and white levels.

Quick update on this: I found the bug, will be fixing it shortly.

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_MiSTer/pull/740

Natrox wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 12:23 pm

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_MiSTer/pull/740

I tested the test build you posted in discord. hdr_avg_nits doesn't work as far as I can see. hdr_max_nits works in hdr=2 DCI P3. On C2 it works best with Dynamic Tone Mapping set to Off. It's really interesting how it works. With color correction on TV, it's looking really good! I got it to look better than HLG to me.

As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong. Would love to learn) when Dynamic Tone Mapping is turned off on C2, tone mapping is mapped to TV's native curve and hdr_max_nits is serving as clipping point. When hdr_max_nits set to 10000, nothing is clipped because TV is setting its max brightness to 10000. As you lower the value, images are clipped at lower value (yellow lines blew) and image get brighter and off color.

I think having this control is really good because you can unclip with scanlines as I posted way earlier in the thread so you can play around with clipping points and push things even higher.

DCI P3 is very green on C2 so I also pushed TV's Tint setting to around R15. Using the color correction setting in ini is not ideal because they also color grays. Tv's Tint setting doesn't touch grays. Low tones are darker so I pushed Black on TV up to 60. It's still dark so I applied my test gamma curve to bring lows up. And I now think it looks much better than HLG to me on my setup.

SNES looks awesome!

Things look clipped but that's due to my phone camera. It's extra blingy inperson. I think this new hdr_max_nits setting is a winner.

Here is my rough gamma curve for lifting low tones.

KennyL wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:48 pm

I tested the test build you posted in discord. hdr_avg_nits doesn't work as far as I can see. hdr_max_nits works in hdr=2 DCI P3. On C2 it works best with Dynamic Tone Mapping set to Off. It's really interesting how it works. With color correction on TV, it's looking really good! I got it to look better than HLG to me.

Glad to hear it's been useful for you!
I personally find it really strange that there is a lot of clipping at 1000 nits, and none at 10000 nits. That seems like it should be the other way around?
The C2 certainly isn't capable of displaying 10000 nits, but I suppose it is just another quirk. I retried all this on C8, to make sure I did not miss anything, but there is indeed no difference in colors on C8 between the different peak brightness options.

I think MaxFALL is just treated like a suggestion - after all, it is the average of every frame of content, which can never be accurate tbh.

I use DCI P2 as well on C8 - it works pretty well and it's a little brighter than HLG thanks to better contrast.
The colors aren't too far off, I just desaturate the image a bit amd do some color balancing using both gain and offset.
You can avoid affecting grays if you play around with the offset parameters, for example, if you have to reduce reds you can use:
0.9, +0.05
....this effectively reduces red contrast while increasing brightness slightly - the end result is a better color balance.

As mentioned in the PR, this is likely the last change for now. Not much more can be done to improve HDR.
I think it would be nice if instead, we work on a spreadsheet of recommended settings for a wide amount of displays.

10000 nits? This is, only theoretical, in the technical specs for Dolby Vision content. There is currently no consumer TV/monitor availabe on the market that outputs more than 1500-2000 nits, everthing above is just clipped. Very expensive studio monitors can probably do more, but nothing in the range of 10000 nits. Not even close. And this is nothing we would need for old computer-/videogames anyway. A value of 250-300 MaxFall/nits is just fine, there are no complex bright/dark scenes like in modern games. And we don't need christmas tree luminance on our displays.

Natrox wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 1:43 am

I personally find it really strange that there is a lot of clipping at 1000 nits, and none at 10000 nits. That seems like it should be the other way around?
The C2 certainly isn't capable of displaying 10000 nits, but I suppose it is just another quirk. I retried all this on C8, to make sure I did not miss anything, but there is indeed no difference in colors on C8 between the different peak brightness options.

I know it's not your intention but I think what's happening is that Mister HDR is outputting 10000 nits and hdr_max_nits is supplying clipping point for TV to map it's max brightness to, which is below 800nits for C2 42". I'm not sure I'm doing it correctly but I grabbed sample PQ curve chart for 2019 LG OLED from displaycalibrations.com and lined up 240p Test Suite Color Bars. Clipping points line up pretty well to the chart on my previous post.

Natrox wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 1:43 am

You can avoid affecting grays if you play around with the offset parameters, for example, if you have to reduce reds you can use:
0.9, +0.05
....this effectively reduces red contrast while increasing brightness slightly - the end result is a better color balance.

I tried to adjust color in ini but it's really not realistic to do since you have you reboot to see results. I rebooted like 50 times while testing your build haha. Dealing with TV color setting is far simpler.

Retro-Nerd wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:07 am

10000 nits? This is, only theoretical, in the technical specs for Dolby Vision content. There is currently no consumer TV/monitor availabe on the market that outputs more than 1500-2000 nits, everthing above is just clipped. Very expensive studio monitors can probably do more, but nothing in the range of 10000 nits. Not even close. And this is nothing we would need for old computer-/videogames anyway. A value of 250-300 MaxFall/nits is just fine, there are no complex bright/dark scenes like in modern games. And we don't need christmas tree luminance on our displays.

10000 nit is mappable but makes lower tones darker. That's why I added gamma curve to lift lows. It's really too bad hdr_avg_nits/MaxFall option doesn't work. Remember we want HDR brightness for scanlines, masks, BFI, etc. So brighter the better. Also I want christmas on my TV everyday! What's wrong with that?

The changes to allow you to change MaxCLL are in - as well as the HDMI limited bugfix.
Should be in the unstable nightly by tomorrow, an official release soon.

hdr_max_nits=770
hdr_avg_nits=203:
With these settings, Contrast TV control is a LOT more effective than with higher previous settings. With HLG adding contrast also adds color as well as brightness as if the contrast controls the exposure level. With DCI I can make the image too dark or too bright whereas TV contrast didn't do much at all previous to this update. DCI was stuck on torch mode and HLG was too bland now it's all solved.

tronic307 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 9:33 pm

hdr_max_nits=770
hdr_avg_nits=203:
With these settings, Contrast TV control is a LOT more effective than with higher previous settings. With HLG adding contrast also adds color as well as brightness as if the contrast controls the exposure level. With DCI I can make the image too dark or too bright whereas TV contrast didn't do much at all previous to this update. DCI was stuck on torch mode and HLG was too bland now it's all solved.

This is really interesting. What's your TV?

Vizio M8 Series Quantum 2020, not high end but it does have HLG, HDR10, and Dolby Vision. I used my measured max brightness @D65 and I got the 203 nits number from here: https://daejeonchronicles.com/2021/02/1 ... on%20below.
and here:
https://community.adobe.com/t5/premiere ... p/11122932

It's like it unlocked something. There are also standards of 100 and 300 nits but I haven't tried those yet.

tronic307 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 9:33 pm

hdr_max_nits=770
hdr_avg_nits=203:
With these settings, Contrast TV control is a LOT more effective than with higher previous settings. With HLG adding contrast also adds color as well as brightness as if the contrast controls the exposure level. With DCI I can make the image too dark or too bright whereas TV contrast didn't do much at all previous to this update. DCI was stuck on torch mode and HLG was too bland now it's all solved.

Surprised to hear this is working so well for you! What kind of impact are you seeing from changing hdr_avg_nits around?
Would you be willing to make a few photos showing different average and max values?

It's a shame that my C8 completely ignores the values, but then again it's an older TV by now (2018).

tronic307 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:21 am

Vizio M8 Series Quantum 2020, not high end but it does have HLG, HDR10, and Dolby Vision. I used my measured max brightness @D65 and I got the 203 nits number from here: https://daejeonchronicles.com/2021/02/1 ... on%20below.
and here:
https://community.adobe.com/t5/premiere ... p/11122932

It's like it unlocked something. There are also standards of 100 and 300 nits but I haven't tried those yet.
Screen Shot 2020-05-08 at 5.52.45 PM.png

Your Vizio definitely looks like it's applying the hdr ini settings correctly. Really too bad LG TVs are not. I would love to see test results from different TVs and monitors.

KennyL wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:31 pm

tronic307 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:21 am

Vizio M8 Series Quantum 2020, not high end but it does have HLG, HDR10, and Dolby Vision. I used my measured max brightness @D65 and I got the 203 nits number from here: https://daejeonchronicles.com/2021/02/1 ... on%20below.
and here:
https://community.adobe.com/t5/premiere ... p/11122932

It's like it unlocked something. There are also standards of 100 and 300 nits but I haven't tried those yet.
Screen Shot 2020-05-08 at 5.52.45 PM.png

Your Vizio definitely looks like it's applying the hdr ini settings correctly. Really too bad LG TVs are not. I would love to see test results from different TVs and monitors.

Thanks. I've been trying to get pics to demonstrate but I need to figure out how to lock the exposure so the differences don't get canceled out. The only case where it's easy to see the difference is when I switch between limited and full range:

Limited is much brighter than full range, is that normal? If I go to full range with HLG I can't do much with the image once again. Could be a separate issue as I remember we had to use limited as full range was getting clipped around last spring and this was before anything with HDR. Maybe it's not the HDR code that's giving us trouble here.

tronic307 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:41 pm

Thanks. I've been trying to get pics to demonstrate but I need to figure out how to lock the exposure so the differences don't get canceled out. The only case where it's easy to see the difference is when I switch between limited and full range:
IMG_6887.jpg
IMG_6888.jpg
Limited is much brighter than full range, is that normal? If I go to full range with HLG I can't do much with the image once again. Could be a separate issue as I remember we had to use limited as full range was getting clipped around last spring and this was before anything with HDR. Maybe it's not the HDR code that's giving us trouble here.

Is your Mister set to limited? This is correct if source is set to limited and TV is set to full. Black gets lifted and white gets lowered.

Finally trying out the updates on my C1. HLG is looking pretty good now at the TV's recommended HDR settings, as long as HDR tone mapping is set to "ON". I also prefer color gamut=native instead of auto, seems a little more saturated at the recommended 55 color. The max/avg nits settings in the ini do nothing for this TV, but it sounds like it helps some people so that's cool.

FoxbatStargazer wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 6:15 am

Finally trying out the updates on my C1. HLG is looking pretty good now at the TV's recommended HDR settings, as long as HDR tone mapping is set to "ON". I also prefer color gamut=native instead of auto, seems a little more saturated at the recommended 55 color. The max/avg nits settings in the ini do nothing for this TV, but it sounds like it helps some people so that's cool.

This is where I've settled as well. It may not look 100% accurate, but I think it looks damn good.

I will admit I've returned to using color gamut="auto" due to accuracy. Its not just a question of more or less saturated, it feels like there's a red shift or something. So with "auto gamut" I instead turn up the TV color to 60, and have the option to turn it up more if I want more saturation that way.

I have been testing out the new HDR mode on the Mister with my LG C1 and LG E7. I have been using the HLG mode and have BFI enabled on my LG, the rest of the settings are following pretty standard configurations, pretty much everything is grayed out anyways... all the power management and stuff like that is turned off as per best practices. What I have found though is that the colors are very very far from accurate. I have been using a Colormunki and HCFR as well as the SNES 240P Test Suite to generate patterns and colors. Here are some of my results.

First is the Default Settings: First Gray Scale then Colors

Second Modified Gain to bring Gray Scale in line pretty well, however Colors are still very off

FYI Here are my HDR settings with a properly calibrated Gray Scale,

video_brightness=50
video_contrast=50
video_saturation=100
video_hue=0
video_gain_offset=1,0,1,0,.98,0

The trick now is figuring out how exactly we can get the colors to look right so we don't have sun burned turtles and orange letters in SMW!

I really don't know why you guys have so much troubles with the HLG-HDR colors. It's 8bit HDR and fully backward compatible with SDR. This is how it should look (with no special settings to colors in the Mister.ini) on a LG C9. Using "game mode" with "Dynamic Tone Mapping" enabled. Saturation level is up to your own preferences. My image looks a bit warmer because i use a white balance setting "Warm2", which is closer to old Sony CRTs.