MiSTer FPGA Forum

Am I just not seeing this core or is it with the Genesis/MD core?

JamesfromDFW wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:39 pm Am I just not seeing this core or is it with the Genesis/MD core?

There is no 32x core for MiSTer. 32x games are not supported

I'd love to see a 32X core in the future since emulation on the 32X is spotty at best.

KremlingKuthroat19 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:36 pm I'd love to see a 32X core in the future since emulation on the 32X is spotty at best.

It is? Not aware of many issues at all with the current libretro cores w.r.t. 32x.

rhester72 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:47 pm

KremlingKuthroat19 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:36 pm I'd love to see a 32X core in the future since emulation on the 32X is spotty at best.

It is? Not aware of many issues at all with the current libretro cores w.r.t. 32x.

Emulators that support 32x that are commonly used are PicoDrive and Kega Fusion. Kega Fusion has basically been abandoned and it's one of the two main emulators used for 32x games. Genesis Plus GX has no 32x support, neither does Blastem, and those are currently the two best ways to emulate Genesis games in software.

PicoDrive is basically what anyone who cares about the most accurate experience use for 32x emulation, and it's got issues. It is not meant to be an accurate emulator, it's made for performance on slower systems and high cross-platform compatibility (mobile, pi, linux-x86, win-x86, etc...). It's sound emulation has issues.

32x emulation would probably be too complex to do "right" on the MiSTer precisely because of the complicated nature in how it uses both processors to generate images, sound, etc... with a lot of reliance upon being synced up, in addition to the processor on the 32x actually being pretty powerful overall when compared to the 16-bit era systems. At least, that's from what I've heard.

There's not much demand for 32x emulation in general because it's largely known as a failed system with a tiny handful of games of which the overwhelming majority are just lackluster or even bad. It's sorta like virtual boy emulation in that way.

32X will eventually happen because I hear that its architecture is similar to the Sega Saturn. I'm no hardware engineer so I have no idea how similar, but if a Saturn core is created, which will happen someday, that means a 32X core would also be likely. At least that's my amatuerish perspective.

KremlingKuthroat19 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:55 pm 32X will eventually happen because I hear that its architecture is similar to the Sega Saturn. I'm no hardware engineer so I have no idea how similar, but if a Saturn core is created, which will happen someday, that means a 32X core would also be likely. At least that's my amatuerish perspective.

I don't think Saturn or 32x will ever happen on MiSTer. Both are too complex.

I heard that Sentence about 15 times already and then a core got released lol

So we just need to keep saying it's not possible... until somebody goes "hold my oscilloscope!"

The big thing is that a Genesis/megadrive needs to be running at the same time on a "32x core".

A saturn core would not need a Genesis/megadrive core running at the same time.
Meaning If 32x and saturn are very similar, a saturn core would be simpler/smaller (needing less space on the FPGA).

The Saturn also has a 68k CPU for housekeeping, the existing Genesis or MegaCD Core would need those extra circuits.

mario64 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:28 am

KremlingKuthroat19 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:55 pm 32X will eventually happen because I hear that its architecture is similar to the Sega Saturn. I'm no hardware engineer so I have no idea how similar, but if a Saturn core is created, which will happen someday, that means a 32X core would also be likely. At least that's my amatuerish perspective.

I don't think Saturn or 32x will ever happen on MiSTer. Both are too complex.

I don't think it's as much a matter of complexity in terms of being impossible to do, it's just complex in many ways and this is a disincentive for a system that already has basically a bad tiny library with almost no reason to work hard to emulate it as a result.

The Saturn and the 32x being similar? Sorta, they basically just share one chip out of their multiple. The Saturn would probably be doable on the MiSTer, just like the PSX is very likely doable (Laxer3a working on it). The N64 is probably impossible on the MiSTer, but likely doable on more expensive FPGA products.

aberu wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:22 pm

mario64 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:28 am

KremlingKuthroat19 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:55 pm 32X will eventually happen because I hear that its architecture is similar to the Sega Saturn. I'm no hardware engineer so I have no idea how similar, but if a Saturn core is created, which will happen someday, that means a 32X core would also be likely. At least that's my amatuerish perspective.

I don't think Saturn or 32x will ever happen on MiSTer. Both are too complex.

I don't think it's as much a matter of complexity in terms of being impossible to do, it's just complex in many ways and this is a disincentive for a system that already has basically a bad tiny library with almost no reason to work hard to emulate it as a result.

The Saturn and the 32x being similar? Sorta, they basically just share one chip out of their multiple. The Saturn would probably be doable on the MiSTer, just like the PSX is very likely doable (Laxer3a working on it). The N64 is probably impossible on the MiSTer, but likely doable on more expensive FPGA products.

I totally agree with what you're saying, but if you build a 32X core first, then you've gotten about 10-20% of the way to a Saturn core. Forgive my ignorance since I'm no programmer, but I'm just using the same logic as when the Motorola 68000 was reverse engineered, how it opened the gateway for Atari Jaguar emulation. The same could be the case for 32X > Saturn or vice versa if a developer was interested in the project. As a standalone, I agree that the 32X isn't very worthwhile outside of Knuckles Chaotix, Kolibri, and a few other games. But from the perspective of getting to the Saturn eventually, it seems like a logical path.

KremlingKuthroat19 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:25 am I totally agree with what you're saying, but if you build a 32X core first, then you've gotten about 10-20% of the way to a Saturn core.

If you're thinking about the SH-2 chip, then it has already been implemented on FPGA: https://j-core.org/
It will need much more to run as a 32X or Saturn, though.

Noob here but if the Saturn core provides the information needed for all the Saturn chips, shouldn’t 32X be much more straightforward? I recall reading it just features one of the Hitachi graphics chips that the Saturn has.

If we do get a Saturn core, which is is looking like we will, then 32x seems almost inevitable if srg320 and Sorg are interested in doing it.

Mega CD 32x games I have no idea however, that could be a bridge too far even if we had working 32x core.

Does the 32X use QSound like the CPS2?

softtest9 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:14 pm Does the 32X use QSound like the CPS2?

No, QSound was exclusive to Capcom Arcade machines.

I guess just cuz its a failed system, doesnt exclude it from preservation. Just feels like something just to have to "complete" sega history, which is a nicetohave.

The sound capabilities added by the 32X was just a simple circuit that allowed playback of sampled audio in either mono or stereo. The maximum sample resolution was 12 bits, but it would drop the higher you set the sample rate. So e.g. at 22 kHz you had approximately 10 bits of resolution for your samples.

The display processor basically just gives you a framebuffer to write into, and then it can be combined with the output of the Megadrive's display processor in various ways. There was no hardware support for sprites, polygons, rotation or scaling.
However, there was a line table which allowed you to tell the display processor to display the lines in the framebuffer in whatever order you wanted, which allowed for certain types of raster effects. There was also hardware support for run-length encoded graphics, and you could switch between 8-bit color mode, 16-bit color mode and run-length encoding mode on a per-scanline basis IIRC.

KremlingKuthroat19 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:25 am

aberu wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:22 pm

mario64 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:28 am
I don't think Saturn or 32x will ever happen on MiSTer. Both are too complex.

I don't think it's as much a matter of complexity in terms of being impossible to do, it's just complex in many ways and this is a disincentive for a system that already has basically a bad tiny library with almost no reason to work hard to emulate it as a result.

The Saturn and the 32x being similar? Sorta, they basically just share one chip out of their multiple. The Saturn would probably be doable on the MiSTer, just like the PSX is very likely doable (Laxer3a working on it). The N64 is probably impossible on the MiSTer, but likely doable on more expensive FPGA products.

I totally agree with what you're saying, but if you build a 32X core first, then you've gotten about 10-20% of the way to a Saturn core. Forgive my ignorance since I'm no programmer, but I'm just using the same logic as when the Motorola 68000 was reverse engineered, how it opened the gateway for Atari Jaguar emulation. The same could be the case for 32X > Saturn or vice versa if a developer was interested in the project. As a standalone, I agree that the 32X isn't very worthwhile outside of Knuckles Chaotix, Kolibri, and a few other games. But from the perspective of getting to the Saturn eventually, it seems like a logical path.

KremlingKuthroat19 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:25 amAs a standalone, I agree that the 32X isn't very worthwhile outside of Knuckles Chaotix, Kolibri, and a few other games. But from the perspective of getting to the Saturn eventually, it seems like a logical path.

Sorry for the necrobump but I felt it was necessary.

I'd say that, as of today, a good 32X core would be more important than a Saturn one from the perspective of hardware emulation and platform preservation.
The few 32X software emulators we have are really, really inaccurate and completely unreliable in terms of dev testing. You have to own a 32X if you want to do anything for the hardware, while the Saturn has much better emulators and far more old real hardware units still available.

Its hardware architecture is also far more straightforward and simple than the Saturn's so it should take a lot less effort to get it done.

About the library, I have to disagree about some of the comments here.

The 32X's NBA JAM TE's gameplay is hands down the best console version we ever had, especially when it comes to AI.

32X Virtua Racing is better than the Genesis one and much, much better than the abomination we got with the Saturn version. Even if we consider the M2's arcade port for the Switch, it still has a good chunk of unique/exclusive content. The Highlands track is easily one of the best of the game and only the 32X version has it.

32X's Virtua Fighter doesn't have the glaring polygon breakup issues of the Saturn port and it also has anamorphic widescreen support that no other version of the game offers.

32X's Blackthorne is pretty much the definitive version of the game.

32X's Tempo is an interesting and awkward exclusive, better than the Saturn sequel.

Kolibri is also pretty good and an exclusive title although very weird and hard to grasp at first. It also supports 2P co-op which is really cool.

Shadow Squadron is awesome and also exclusive.

And now we also have Doom 32X Resurrection which is superior to the Jaguar, 3DO, Saturn and original 32X ports. It also has local 2P modes using split screen that not even the PS1 version had.

I think that more than justifies the need for a 32X core.

Very much agree. Plus, 32x hardware is just so darn finicky and unreliable I see MiSTer as the perfect platform to preserve this console.

Once the Saturn is here, it will probably come relatively fast after that. They both share some of the same hardware right?

I actually didn't think they shared any hardware at all, which is why 32X was viewed as so wasteful in light of the imminent release of the Saturn.

I personally feel the games mostly suck (hehe) but I did wonder if the work done on Saturn core's dual Hitachi SH-2 chips would essentially be drop-in or close to it for a potential 32X core. Hope so! Would love to see it happen.

rhester72 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:10 am I actually didn't think they shared any hardware at all, which is why 32X was viewed as so wasteful in light of the imminent release of the Saturn.

Here's what I have found:

"Sega 32X:

The MAIN processors were twin Hitachi SH-2 (SH7095) 32-bit RISC processors with clock speed of 23.01 MHz

Sega Saturn

The MAIN processors were twin Hitachi SH-2 (SH7604) 32-bit RISC processors with clock speed of 28.6 MHz


32X was capable of doing 50,000 polygons per second. It should be noted that since the 32X was an add-on for the Genesis, the graphics hardware of the 32X was typically split between the 32-bit VDP (which provided the really fancy stuff. For example: the 3D polygon characters in Virtua Fighter 32X and other 3D elements on screen) and the 16-bit Genesis VDP provided stuff like the backgrounds and some minor stuff (depending on the game)

Saturn was capable of doing 200,000 texture mapped polygons per second OR 500,000 flat shaded polygons per second. Since the Saturn was it's own system (and not an add-on for the Genesis) it had two 32 bit VDPs (one for characters and other main stuff, and the other for backgrounds). "

Credit: Oliver_Oliver https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/91 ... 273?page=2

Processors are where the similarities start and end.... Still it's a decent start for a 32x core after the Saturn.

There currently not being decent emulation for the 32X makes things all the more difficult for whoever ends up taking it on.

It's also why the Jaguar core is in the shape that it's in.

@dmckean Just curious about your perspective - what's wrong with the 32X portion of Picodrive?

JamesfromDFW wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:39 pm Am I just not seeing this core or is it with the Genesis/MD core?

I know TC we got the Megadrive and the CD, 32X would make the trifecta! Unfortunately, there aren't any devs rn working on it. I'm not even sure if they're interested given the very opinionated flak this thing gets for it's library.

I don't care what anyone says Knux Chaotix is the shit. I will pray someone eventually makes this core happen. We should all encourage any devs who are interested. If nothing else for completionist sake. Imagine the Mister being the Sega Super Set. Sega 32X CD that joint is bangin!!!!

@Barone

Didn't know that about VF1 thanks!

This was discussed earlier in the thread, and elsewhere, but the general assumption is that srg320 will move on to the 32x after finishing Saturn and doing some needed improvements to the Mega Drive core. The Saturn core and Mega Drive fixes pave the way for the 32x. There is a reasonable chance we could have it by the end of the year.