MiSTer FPGA Forum

Posted: **Mon May 25, 2020 11:40 pm**

good afternoon, all

after running the ao486 MISTer core for some time. i have a few items wish-list items that seem to be missing.

-- a clone of the intel 486dx
-- on bored cash 128kb
-- ram size options 4mb / 8mb / 16mb -- its 64mb at current witch is over kill and lowers compatible titles
-- ibm os2 support
-- support for direct draw

-- an 16 bit ISA add-on would a nice inclusion for sound and video cards

the amount of work on this core to this point is amazing, and has been an amazing experience with on point compatibility, my thanks to every on who has worked on this core so far and all of the ongoing projects on the MISTer.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 12:38 am**

If we're talking new features rather than bug fixes, the thing I would most love to see would be a video chipset that has an actual driver available for it for better-than-16-color-mode. After that would be SB16 support (or even AWE32, if there's space for it on the FPGA). Third would be emulating an IDE CD-ROM drive via mounting an image with the core.

The CPU's definitely unoptimized, but that's personally lower on my list than the audio/video/CD-ROM stuff.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 1:17 am**

I dont know if this is a wish list item per sea but the VGA implementation seems a little iffy.. I installed GeoWorks Ensemble and there are some odd graphical artifacts.. not sure if its just how the VGA was implemented or the driver in geoworks.. I never commented on this till now as I was trying to find the time to see if I could isolate the problem i.e. software or just quirky hardware implementation .. etc..

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 3:40 am**

i think the audio card implantation is the strong point of the ao486 core - its a good stand in, at this pint at this time.
the video is a place where speed improvements can be made. it is also one of the most complex parts witch is why the need for 16bit isa bus to the gpio, at least as a stand in witch will also give support for vintage PC cards (sound, network, and I/O ).
some good video card candidates would be the " ati Mach 32 " or " S3 Trio32 "
as far as cd support goes it may be able to be added in software as an emulated device

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 4:10 am**

What is currently holding back this core is its memory implementation (getting EMM to work properly is still a pain) and the crashes related to it, and the performance of the CPU.

If these 2 things can be improved, the core will be borderline perfect for what it is.

We'll never get the variety of hardware you can get from a real computer, but having this configuration work without bugs will already be great.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 4:36 am**

I've got to say, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one using this core. It and the Amiga are easily the two that I find myself fooling around in the most. I've got mTCP set up on it with irc, ftp, and telnet under DOS. I agree that the video seems to need more work than the audio at this point.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 4:48 am**

NightShadowPT wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 4:10 am What is currently holding back this core is its memory implementation (getting EMM to work properly is still a pain) and the crashes related to it, and the performance of the CPU.

I recall using PCs around that era, and extensively using various versions of EMM and QEMM.

Don't make the assumption that original hardware was ever working bug-free with these. Different versions came with slightly less or slightly more instabilities, and I don't recall anymore which versions of the drivers were best... but none of them were ever crash-free.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 5:50 am**

dshadoff wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 4:48 am Don't make the assumption that original hardware was ever working bug-free with these. Different versions came with slightly less or slightly more instabilities, and I don't recall anymore which versions of the drivers were best... but none of them were ever crash-free.

I don't... I rocked a NEC V40 (8086 compatible) with 512Kb RAM for 5 years and a 386DX25 with 4Mb for another 4, so I'm quite familiar with the PCs at the time.

Notwithstanding, you can see how unstable the core can be just by the fact that sometimes it hangs while booting up and running through Config.sys and Autoexec.bat.

Anyway, as I'm no developer I'm happy to enjoy what we have

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 6:20 am**

That reminds me of a famous quote:
"640 KByte is all you will ever neeed"

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 6:21 am**

Do "booter" games work with the current core? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_PC_booter_games
If not - maybe a special mode (or separate core) could be made just for these, since it would only need a subset of functionality for general DOS support.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 6:23 am**

dshadoff wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 4:48 am
NightShadowPT wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 4:10 am What is currently holding back this core is its memory implementation (getting EMM to work properly is still a pain) and the crashes related to it, and the performance of the CPU.
I recall using PCs around that era, and extensively using various versions of EMM and QEMM.

Don't make the assumption that original hardware was ever working bug-free with these. Different versions came with slightly less or slightly more instabilities, and I don't recall anymore which versions of the drivers were best... but none of them were ever crash-free.

Indeed, the pcs of that error were quite crashy. One of the reasons was the real mode in dos and the many helper tools to gain some ram above 640Kbyte or open a small window to get the extra ram. No memory protection and adding some processor hacks on top of that to get enough ram to get a program going did not help stability at all.
The PC was basically the worst system of that era (well probably the ZX 81 was worse but that one came before the PC).
So if ao486 crashes it is probably always the question did ao486 crash or the underlying pc architecture/operating system or the memory manager.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 6:24 am**

NightShadowPT wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 5:50 am
dshadoff wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 4:48 am
Notwithstanding, you can see how unstable the core can be just by the fact that sometimes it hangs while booting up and running through Config.sys and Autoexec.bat.

Anyway, as I'm no developer I'm happy to enjoy what we have
It only freezes if you touch the mouse while booting for some strange reason. Its a perfectly fine 386dx core otherwise. I have plenty of retro DOS PC, this isn't any more / less reliable than them in general.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 7:51 am**

just a heads up but if this is you first time with this core, and your getting random crashing and lockups.
it is recommended to have at least a good heatsink or fan that can keep the Altera Cyclone package under 70c.
also after large MISTer updates and core program changes, i recommend to power cycle the de10 nano.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 8:09 am**

suverman wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 6:24 am It only freezes if you touch the mouse while booting for some strange reason. Its a perfectly fine 386dx core otherwise. I have plenty of retro DOS PC, this isn't any more / less reliable than them in general.

I feel that stability of the core is fine, but there seem to be some issues with memory management or cpu because some games do not run whatever I try. Ultima VII is prime example.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 11:15 am**

werpu wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 6:23 am Indeed, the pcs of that error were quite crashy. One of the reasons was the real mode in dos and the many helper tools to gain some ram above 640Kbyte or open a small window to get the extra ram. No memory protection and adding some processor hacks on top of that to get enough ram to get a program going did not help stability at all.
The PC was basically the worst system of that era (well probably the ZX 81 was worse but that one came before the PC).

I wouldn't go as far as saying that, at least in regard to games. I don't recall soem extreme crashiness at all. Getting stuff to run in DOS could be a bit tricky sometimes, but once it ran, it ran. Which is why all the cringing when Win 95 came about and we all saw blue.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 12:32 pm**

death5126 wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 7:51 am just a heads up but if this is you first time with this core, and your getting random crashing and lockups.
it is recommended to have at least a good heatsink or fan that can keep the Altera Cyclone package under 70c.
also after large MISTer updates and core program changes, i recommend to power cycle the de10 nano.

My MiSTer is adequately cooled,so that is not the problem, but this is VERY GOOD advice.

Posted: **Wed May 27, 2020 3:29 pm**

NightShadowPT wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 4:10 am What is currently holding back this core is its memory implementation (getting EMM to work properly is still a pain) and the crashes related to it, and the performance of the CPU.

If these 2 things can be improved, the core will be borderline perfect for what it is.

We'll never get the variety of hardware you can get from a real computer, but having this configuration work without bugs will already be great.

I thought about addon cards and stuff. And I wonder if we could offload the GFX-Card for example onto another FPGA and connect each other

Posted: **Wed May 27, 2020 6:15 pm**

akeley wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 11:15 am I don't recall soem extreme crashiness at all. Getting stuff to run in DOS could be a bit tricky sometimes, but once it ran, it ran.

You must not have known anyone with a Packard-Bell.

Posted: **Wed May 27, 2020 11:04 pm**

Is the core able to read the 2nd SD card? Say as a secondary drive?
I wonder it this core could be used to FTP things into it, so we don't have to physically remove it.

Posted: **Wed May 27, 2020 11:41 pm**

abbub wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 6:15 pm
akeley wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 11:15 am I don't recall soem extreme crashiness at all. Getting stuff to run in DOS could be a bit tricky sometimes, but once it ran, it ran.
You must not have known anyone with a Packard-Bell.

I never had one of those myself, but I still remember being absolutely baffled the first time I found out about their bizarre sound/modem combo cards.

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2020 12:22 am**

Newsdee wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 11:04 pm Is the core able to read the 2nd SD card? Say as a secondary drive?
I wonder it this core could be used to FTP things into it, so we don't have to physically remove it.

You can already FTP into and out of it without physically removing the drive. Just set up PPP through a packet driver (DOS) or Trumpet Winsock (Win95) and you can read and write directly from the vhd.

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2020 12:23 am**

Kreeblah wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 11:41 pm I never had one of those myself, but I still remember being absolutely baffled the first time I found out about their bizarre sound/modem combo cards.

I did phone tech support for HP CD writers in the late 90s. The Packard Bell calls were always the most miserable.

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2020 1:26 am**

abbub wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 6:15 pm
akeley wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 11:15 am I don't recall soem extreme crashiness at all. Getting stuff to run in DOS could be a bit tricky sometimes, but once it ran, it ran.
You must not have known anyone with a Packard-Bell.

I did tech support for an internet company in the mid / late 90's. Packard-Bell well earned their "Packard-Hell" nickname! I hated taking calls from people who bought one of those systems.

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2020 7:38 pm**

Support for CD-Rom images would be very useful in my opinion. There are some DOS games that stream audio tracks from disc. Installing operating systems would also be easier.

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2020 6:56 am**

death5126 wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 11:40 pm -- ram size options 4mb / 8mb / 16mb -- its 64mb at current witch is over kill and lowers compatible titles

I would like it too but meanwhile i use EATXMS program that remove memory (how much i want) and permit to
play to some games like Aladdin that otherwise won't works

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2020 3:13 pm**

softtest9 wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:38 pm Support for CD-Rom images would be very useful in my opinion. There are some DOS games that stream audio tracks from disc. Installing operating systems would also be easier.

This is not a bad idea, but until the core is fast enough to support most CD-Rom games, it's usefulness is limited.

Posted: **Sat May 30, 2020 4:38 am**

torchredfrc wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 1:26 am
abbub wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 6:15 pm
akeley wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 11:15 am I don't recall soem extreme crashiness at all. Getting stuff to run in DOS could be a bit tricky sometimes, but once it ran, it ran.
You must not have known anyone with a Packard-Bell.
I did tech support for an internet company in the mid / late 90's. Packard-Bell well earned their "Packard-Hell" nickname! I hated taking calls from people who bought one of those systems.

The problem was that year after year Consumer Reports would put Packard Hell near the top of thier lists. I had a local shop in the mid-late 90's and ARGH!

Posted: **Sat May 30, 2020 3:11 pm**

I've been using this core for a while now, and it's current implementation is quite good and allows me to do weird things like successfully run code I wrote back in the early 1990s inside Turbo Pascal 7 for college assignments. As some have already said, while the CPU isn't yet optimized, I'd also like to wishlist native video running at 800x600 in 256 colors (maybe S3 Trio) - that would be my primary wish item.

Posted: **Sat May 30, 2020 9:28 pm**

The VGA is pretty lackluster, svga was definitely most common with 486's. "Turbo button" would be great once a full speed 486 like a DX is implemented. Also, an L1 L2 cache disabler or BIOS would be great to slow down the computer for older games as well as setting the clock for folks with RTC boards. I noticed when accessing the A: drive in windows 3.1 the whole core locks up. Not sure what that's about, probably also part of the bios issue. Also on the VGA, I know VGA has 31khz standard, but I don't know too much that actually needs it software wise. Would be cool if there was a scanhalver that cut it down to 15khz. Just a thought.

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:38 pm**

The question is anyway, how much of a need for an i486 implementation in fpga really is. It is not like you need cycle accuracy on a pc platform, given that even the PC in that era came with a varity of clockspeeds and graphics cards, hence not even a single processor, given that amd cyrix etc.. were as well in the game in combination with intel.
So my guess is, a pc based computer with dosbox to provide the needed drivers in this case really is the better option. But it still is nice to have the PC as an option for mister.

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