MiSTer FPGA Forum

To those of you who tried it, is the BlisSTer Board Worth it?

For me it was!
But i did buy the bliss-box 4way with the cable pack when they had the retroarch bundle for a good price.

So i had all cables except DB15 for the "BlisSTer" already so i can use all nintendo/sega/DB9/n64/ps2/and so on.
The plus side is that you can use any controller on any core with the BlisSTer and it has a usb hub in it as well so you can plug in keyboard/mouse/wifi/controllers too.
With SNAC you can ONLY use the "right" controller for the core, as in can you plug it in and it works on a real console it works in mister with SNAC, to me this is a BIG drawback.

The bad side is that LLAPI is not opensource so will never be included in the "official" mister cores so you must download LLAPI cores using for example update all script does that for you.
Then there are not many cores that gets the LLAPI treatment.
BUT when running cores with no LLAPI you can still use all controllers on all cores the difference is that they will work in/over regular USB (even if they are connected with the "blissbox HDMI cables"), when using LLAPI cores they will work in LLAPI=Low Latency API, a bit lower lag/latency then USB mode that is.

Did i need the lower LLAPI latency on the BlisSTer?
Probably not i have mostly played using LLAPI cores but have tried non LLAPI cores too and i do not think i can feel a difference and sure as hell can´t see any.

Yes, the adapter cables are really convenient since I have tons of original console controllers around. Everything is very responsive whether in LLAPI or USB modes. Plus the built in power switch is super convenient. I highly recommend the BlisSTer board.

grizzly wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:14 am For me it was!
But i did buy the bliss-box 4way with the cable pack when they had the retroarch bundle for a good price.

So i had all cables except DB15 for the "BlisSTer" already so i can use all nintendo/sega/DB9/n64/ps2/and so on.
The plus side is that you can use any controller on any core with the BlisSTer and it has a usb hub in it as well so you can plug in keyboard/mouse/wifi/controllers too.
With SNAC you can ONLY use the "right" controller for the core, as in can you plug it in and it works on a real console it works in mister with SNAC, to me this is a BIG drawback.

The bad side is that LLAPI is not opensource so will never be included in the "official" mister cores so you must download LLAPI cores using for example update all script does that for you.
Then there are not many cores that gets the LLAPI treatment.
BUT when running cores with no LLAPI you can still use all controllers on all cores the difference is that they will work in/over regular USB (even if they are connected with the "blissbox HDMI cables"), when using LLAPI cores they will work in LLAPI=Low Latency API, a bit lower lag/latency then USB mode that is.

Did i need the lower LLAPI latency on the BlisSTer?
Probably not i have mostly played using LLAPI cores but have tried non LLAPI cores too and i do not think i can feel a difference and sure as hell can´t see any.

Well the lack of official support is my main reason for hesitating on this $300 CAD investment (board, 10 adapters, new case). I didn't know that LLAPI was not open source however, that explains the lack of official support. Maybe this will become open source one day, guess I'll wait in the meantime.

Cheers

the_importer wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:47 pm To those of you who tried it, is the BlisSTer Board Worth it?

Hi! I have it since it first launched, and I can say that it´s absolutely amazing if you like using original controllers. It ticks all boxes, and you still have 5 usb ports for modern controllers as in the standard USB board. Ulao (the Blisster developer) is super helpful, he answers fast any question, and is very active updating and improving Blisster, Bliss-box and Gamer-Pro.

I believe LLAPI per se is open source, but there is some code in the Blisster (the same as in the original Bliss-box or Gamer-Pro) that is not open source.
LLAPI cores are regularly updated by Rezbit, and it's a breeze to get them (I use update_all), and they work perfect.

In any case, you don't really need the LLAPI cores to use original controllers, you can use them without any problems in the standard cores. In fact I bought the Blisster before I heard about LLAPI, when it was not yet implemented. You only need the LLAPI cores if you want to use original controllers with no latency and replicate the timing of original consoles. In the standard cores you get ~4ms latency, which is usually fine for casual gaming (and lower than most LED TVs latency, usually ~10-50ms).

So for me, the summary is:

• You still get 5 USB ports of the original USB extension

• You get 2 ports that let you use any original controller with all of Mister cores and with minimal latency - you can mix controllers with cores.

• With the LLAPI cores, you can use any original controller in any core with no latency.

As a plus, you get a power button. So I believe it's a worthwhile investment if you like using original controllers. Finally, if you ever plan to use original controllers with PC emulation, you can get a Gamer-Pro and use the same connector cables.
Good luck!

Latching onto this subject, what if I'm planning on building a custom case with the inputs for the original controllers built in? Can the adapter cables be repurposed for that, or would I be better off in that case building custom DaemonByte adapters since I'd be tearing apart the components anyway?

Scars Unseen wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:40 am Latching onto this subject, what if I'm planning on building a custom case with the inputs for the original controllers built in? Can the adapter cables be repurposed for that, or would I be better off in that case building custom DaemonByte adapters since I'd be tearing apart the components anyway?

DaemonByte adapters would suit you more. As there only so much you can do with the BlisSTer with LLAPI not being on every core.
Plus factor in the cost, you can make your own DaemonByte adapter by buying a Arduino Pro Micro cheaply (especially if you buy in bulk), BlisSTer is $300.

Plus if you make a mistake and break something, DaemonByte adapter if you messed up you are out of $10, messed up a BlisSTer you are out of $300.

I own one blisster board, i think i remember the creator of that thing telling me there will be an update soon to support lightgun. It was some times ago and i didn't update the board for a long time, but now i want to buy some lightgun. Any info on that ?

darksakul wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:29 am BlisSTer is $300.

What BlisSTer have you been looking at/bought?
The gold plated one with diamonds as LED prisms?
It costs 85$ and then 59$ for ten cables plus shipping at the bliss-box store.

I replied to a similar question on Reddit. I think there's a good value proposition if you buy into the Bliss-box.net ecosystem. You can use the GamerPro with original controllers on PC and console (with extra hardware). You can use the BlisSTer on MiSTer with menu support. You can use an HDMI SNAC adapter on MiSTer too.

grizzly wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:32 pm

darksakul wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:29 am BlisSTer is $300.

What BlisSTer have you been looking at/bought?
The gold plated one with diamonds as LED prisms?
It costs 85$ and then 59$ for ten cables plus shipping at the bliss-box store.

Not only that, the BlisSTer and the deamonbite adapter (or other fast usb solutions) are not mutually exclusive, you can use both. I'm not sure what he's trying to say, but the BlisSTer is is no way shape or form $300.

grizzly wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:32 pm It costs 85$ and then 59$ for ten cables plus shipping at the bliss-box store.

My Point still stands, an Arduino Pro Micro is like $10, less if you buy in bulk.

The blister starts at $85, but $59 per cable or ten cables (I don't care) adds up very fast
You are still looking at a $300 investment for the Blisster

Exactly how do you expect to connect your controller to the Arduino? Bare wires?

You're going to need to build some sort of adapter either way. The BlisSTer offers cheap, convenient adapter cables.

6$ for a cable is not that cheap but at the same time they are cables with one common connector (HDMI) and other not so common connectors (besides DB9/DB15).
And they ARE very good quality so not that expensive either!

Going the DaemonBite way and the ready made adapters the five DaemonBite is selling is 19$ a piece x5=95$ and then you will only have DB9/DB15/nes/snes/sega genesis\megadrive.
So not as many systems as the blissbox have cables for.
So you have too build your own cables/adapters for the other controllers and have to either buy a connector that fits that systems controller or cut the wire and wire it directly.
And from what i know (that could be wrong) N64/gamecube/wii/dreamcast/ps1/ps2 do not have a DaemonBite github software/software/code.

But sure it IS cheaper

Going the even cheaper way and buying a bunch of Arduino Pro Micro then you have too but all connectors or cut all cables and build the adapters.
There could be other github software/software/code for the "missing" controllers for the arduino i have not seen (or looking) any.
And IF they exist then come the problem of knowing how they work, i mean will they have the same low latency as DaemonBites code has? Will they work at high USB polling rate or simple use the standard 125mhz?
If the coder say it is low latency has it been verified by others like in DaemonBite´s case?

If you do not have a soldering iron you have too buy that and so on
But sure it IS even cheaper.

And sure N64/gamecube/wii/dreamcast/ps1/ps2 controller support for the mister is not as big a deal as NES/SNES/and so on except ps1 if the core will work out ok in the end.
But Ps2/gamecube controllers ARE loved by many people and many would probably want too use them even when playing other systems on the mister.

So other than being able to use original pads on the MiSTer is the BlisSTer worth if from a latency stand point?, when using the standard MiSTer version 2.1 USB hub and enabling the fast polling option???

I was under the impression nowadays that the latency of the standard USB hub of the MiSTer is so good that you cant tell a difference from that of the BlisSTer???

BlockABoots wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:28 pm So other than being able to use original pads on the MiSTer is the BlisSTer worth if from a latency stand point?, when using the standard MiSTer version 2.1 USB hub and enabling the fast polling option???

I was under the impression nowadays that the latency of the standard USB hub of the MiSTer is so good that you cant tell a difference from that of the BlisSTer???

I think were approaching if not passed the point where the MiSTer has less latency than the actual original consoles.

BlockABoots wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:28 pm So other than being able to use original pads on the MiSTer is the BlisSTer worth if from a latency stand point?, when using the standard MiSTer version 2.1 USB hub and enabling the fast polling option???

I was under the impression nowadays that the latency of the standard USB hub of the MiSTer is so good that you cant tell a difference from that of the BlisSTer???

Not all USB controllers are made equally, you need to check porkchopexpress' epic excel sheet with latency measurements. But there are plenty of compatible controllers that are "good enough" for anyone other than pro speedrunners or stuff like lightguns. 5 ms is already good enough for me but there are 1-2ms options that are near indistinguishable from the real deal.

darksakul wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:33 am I think were approaching if not passed the point where the MiSTer has less latency than the actual original consoles.

I don't know a single case of this because it would violate the typical goal of accuracy by default and super-enhancements being optional toggles and I haven't seen any such toggles. I suppose this might apply to handheld cores where a CRT or modern gaming LCD can update faster than the original screen, but with the bulk of systems being originally designed for CRTs...

darksakul wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:33 am

BlockABoots wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:28 pm So other than being able to use original pads on the MiSTer is the BlisSTer worth if from a latency stand point?, when using the standard MiSTer version 2.1 USB hub and enabling the fast polling option???

I was under the impression nowadays that the latency of the standard USB hub of the MiSTer is so good that you cant tell a difference from that of the BlisSTer???

I think were approaching if not passed the point where the MiSTer has less latency than the actual original consoles.

The actual latency of the console is baked into the core. The USB latency times are additional latency.

FoxbatStargazer wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:19 pm I don't know a single case of this because it would violate the typical goal of accuracy by

You do realize very few cores are actually that accurate. Depending on the core, some are very inaccurate. That the term "Cycle accurate" is a big misnomer as it's never the true target for FPGA accuracy. Sometimes cycle accuracy is sacrificed for actual performance accuracy of the software running in each core. Most of the cores target an idealize version of each console instead of an absolute version, this applies especially with Cores that represents consoles with multiple hardware revisions.

Prime example, none of the cores actually properly replicate the analog video out of each console, instead giving what a idealized output in RGB, especially for the cores that never supported RGB output.

And with many of these consoles having multiple hardware revisions, many core developers go for a middle of the road approach.

If you actually study the hardware, there little to no latency with many (but not all) of the native controllers themselves, example the NES and SNES controllers uses shift registers as encoders (which have a latency in the nanoseconds) or the SMS, Atari, and Neo Geo controllers don't even use encoders at all.

But the controllers can only be read as fast as the original hardware allows, no one notices really but in actuality the Genesis/Mega drive only reads one of two states for the 3 button game pad (held high or low) once every 4 clock cycles due to how they duplex what originally SMS inputs, which swaps over to 4 states for the 6 Button pad (as they duplex the duplex, often using a custom ASIC).

With a 800mhz Arm CPU and 1ms polling, the MiSTer actually reads game controllers faster than the original consoles could ever do.
That 1ms is often faster than most of these older consoles and Microcomputers can read their native game pads.

Your latency comes from the USB Game pad it self, not the USB Host (the DE 10 Nano's USB input).

Snac and LLAPI bypass the USB emulation of the hardware controller input, taking advantage of native controllers.

dmckean wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:34 pm The actual latency of the console is baked into the core. The USB latency times are additional latency.

Not really, the MiSTer community needs to get off the "Cycle Accuracy" high horse here.
USB it self don't contribute to latency, The USB encoders on game pads do, USB APIs on Windows/Macs/Linux does, but not necessarily with the USB Host.

I believe the latest firmware of Blisster allows you to use lightguns with a CRT if you use LLAPI mode.

Regarding latency, the Blisster is great as a generic USB adapter for original controllers. You can also get a Gamer-Pro (also from bliss-box) and use it with a PC. I have both of those and the SNAC with HDMI connector from MisterAddons, so I can reuse the cables across three devices. The big selling point of Bliss* products is that you spend less money overall if you have lots of controllers (as a cable is cheaper than an adapter).

Deamonbite are also great adaptors but they support less controllers type and seem to be often out of stock. I really like their "arcade" adapters, that I use as upgrade to "Zero Delay" encoder PCBs (turns out "Zero" is just a brand name and the latency of those boards is closer to 25ms..!)

Of course, if you don't mind getting your hands busy soldering, you can also make a Daemonbite yourself using their open-source firmware. People have modded original controllers into USB devices using that.

Newsdee wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:10 am that I use as upgrade to "Zero Delay" encoder PCBs (turns out "Zero" is just a brand name and the latency of those boards is closer to 25ms..!)

How yeah, the "Zero Delay" PCB is crap. It's just cheaply made PCB with a deceptive name.

Newsdee wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:10 am Deamonbite are also great adaptors but they support less controllers type and seem to be often out of stock.

The Upside is, if you are handy you can make your own.
As for supporting less controller types? How many different kinds controllers do you really need?

Other than a NES style pad, a SNES, Sega 6 Button (Genesis or Saturn), a paddle/spinner, and a Controller with a Keypad, maybe an Arcade stick, what else would you need?

A Daemonbite adapter will just work and is so low latency that it is for all practical purposes lag free. LLAPI is proprietary and should not be relied upon since the code is not available who knows how long it will be supported and since it is non standard it needs to be separately maintained. I would say this. Get or make a daemonbite adapter and you can use OG controllers and if you want get a snac adapter and you can use those same controllers through that if you wish to. I use a 8bitdo 2.4g Genesis port M30 through my daemonbite for casual play then switch things off to OG controllers for more dedicated play throughs. I have right now a genesis Daemonbite, NES one and a arcade stick with a working coin mech all work great and litterally plug and play, no fussing with 3rd party BS or getting other things working just the initial MiSTer setup and I have had no issues or worries.

redsteakraw wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:47 am A Daemonbite adapter will just work and is so low latency that it is for all practical purposes lag free. LLAPI is proprietary and should not be relied upon since the code is not available who knows how long it will be supported and since it is non standard it needs to be separately maintained. I would say this. Get or make a daemonbite adapter and you can use OG controllers and if you want get a snac adapter and you can use those same controllers through that if you wish to. I use a 8bitdo 2.4g Genesis port M30 through my daemonbite for casual play then switch things off to OG controllers for more dedicated play throughs. I have right now a genesis Daemonbite, NES one and a arcade stick with a working coin mech all work great and litterally plug and play, no fussing with 3rd party BS or getting other things working just the initial MiSTer setup and I have had no issues or worries.

The daomonbite has a blob of proprietary firmware too. The whole LLAPI is proprietary is a very weak argument. Just use what works for you, the BlisSTer is a great product even if you never used LLAPI and always kept it in USB mode.

I'm confused, I'm not seeing any proprietary firmware blobs in the Daemonbite repos?

I guess it is related to USB and would be in the standard libraries, not in what Daemonbite wrote.

dmckean wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:50 pm The daomonbite has a blob of proprietary firmware too.

The hell are you talking about. More people who don't research a topic before they speak on it. The whole Daemonbites project is open sourced, it used existing libraries and drivers, publicly available documentation on a very available and easy to find board. Anyone with the publicly available Arduino IDE a Micro SUB cable and a Arduino Pro Micro can make their own Daemonbites adapter.

Only thing that is closed off and propitiatory is the BlisSTer.

dmckean wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:50 pm The daomonbite has a blob of proprietary firmware too. The whole LLAPI is proprietary is a very weak argument. Just use what works for you, the BlisSTer is a great product even if you never used LLAPI and always kept it in USB mode.

There is one thing saying it needs some firmware to get hardware working it is another thing to require a needlessly proprietary system that was designed to be proprietary and necessitates a full fork of the project just have the hardware and it still isn't fast enough to work with light guns or work directly with the system. like SNAC. I am sure it is fine if you are fully bought into the platform and have all the adapters but if you are going in new from scratch you aren't gaining much of anything than going the Daemonbite + Snac route

darksakul wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:35 am Other than a NES style pad, a SNES, Sega 6 Button (Genesis or Saturn), a paddle/spinner, and a Controller with a Keypad, maybe an Arcade stick, what else would you need?

My controller collection is well beyond the "need" and shamelessly into the "want" / "beyond reason" at this stage.

I can think of:
- Playstation with analogue controls (e.g. JogCon)
- N64 (analogue stick)
- Gamecube (analogue sticks + analogue triggers)
- Intellivision and Colecovision (with number pad)
- Atari Jaguar
- Atari 5200
- Atari Paddles

Analogue controls are useful for computer cores, not just the original system.
But I guess most people won't care about older consoles or computers.

As for me, I like being able to pick up any old controller and throw it at my MiSTer / PC. But I'm probably the minority

redsteakraw wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:47 am LLAPI is proprietary and should not be relied upon since the code is not available who knows how long it will be supported and since it is non standard it needs to be separately maintained.

LLAPI is open source, there is an open hardware version of the adapter and of the protocol: https://github.com/bootsector/LLAMA
(I've built a couple, works great for NeoGeo controllers)

But yes, the Blisster firmware itself is proprietary if that bothers you.

who has Blister adapter cables? I'm still looking for SNES and NEO GEO adapters.