MiSTer FPGA Forum

I am looking to get a system dedicated to retro emulation (some old 8 bit computers and arcades). I was looking at getting the Raspberry Pi 4 but then stumbled upon the MiSTer FPGA. I have read up on the basics of FPGA and understand they are more accurate and don't suffer with input lag. However, it is a lot more expensive and I'm unsure whether I would care about the extra accuracy. I don't like fighting games where the input lag probably suffers most. It's impossible to know without trying it and it's not cheap enough just to take a punt on and test out.

Has anyone here got both and thought the Pi4 was enough for their needs? Or was the MiSTer FPGA a big enough jump and if so why?

Pi4 has composite built in. This is a huge benefit over the mister. It's also full of crap retro distros that will riddle your mind with configuring. Less money.

Mister is very simple to configure. It's less prone to sd corruption and can be shut off like an appliance. Lots of I/O options with analog or digital hat. More money.

I sold my pi4 setup and got a gamecube. Modified it on the cheap. It's dead easy to setup and plenty of fun. There are lots of options now for modding consoles.

Mister will be for arcade machine with crt.

The question is:

how good do your want your emulation of old systems?

I've run retro platforms for things like Amiga since the early 00s and the MiSTer is the first I've used that actually feels like real hardware.

You can get started with a few cores with a base DE10-Nano, which isn't a huge expense. You don't need all of the add-on boards to get started, just a DE10-Nano, an SD card and a USB hub.

The pi4 is better for more recent consoles, but anything older than ps1 it just isn't even close imho. MiSTer kills it.

MiSTer also gives you damn near perfect emulation of the Neo Geo which is the best of the old 16 bit systems and also covers a bunch of arcade games.

Quasar wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 9:37 am I am looking to get a system dedicated to retro emulation (some old 8 bit computers and arcades). I was looking at getting the Raspberry Pi 4 but then stumbled upon the MiSTer FPGA. I have read up on the basics of FPGA and understand they are more accurate and don't suffer with input lag. However, it is a lot more expensive and I'm unsure whether I would care about the extra accuracy. I don't like fighting games where the input lag probably suffers most. It's impossible to know without trying it and it's not cheap enough just to take a punt on and test out.

Has anyone here got both and thought the Pi4 was enough for their needs? Or was the MiSTer FPGA a big enough jump and if so why?

I have used plenty of Pi's in the past and present. They are often not as good as using emulators on a full AMD/Intel pc. The benefit is the low cost overall, obviously like others said you can get cheap expansion products to get composite video out, etc...

The MiSTer is a far more refined experience and it's now hard for me to go back. The input lag isn't just about playing a game successfully, there is a "feel" to it that just feels right. The way the MiSTer's built-in scaler displays video to the screen is second to none, it's super smooth scrolling and crisp. These are the things that matter to me.

keilmillerjr wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 12:04 pm Pi4 has composite built in. This is a huge benefit over the mister. It's also full of crap retro distros that will riddle your mind with configuring. Less money.

The Pi's built-in composite is pretty bad tbh, hence why people get the Pi CRT converter boards instead. The Pi composite is like hooking up a computer to a crt television back in the day. Often incorrect aspect ratios, shimmering due to improper video signal, etc...

Quasar wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 9:37 am it is a lot more expensive and I'm unsure whether I would care about the extra accuracy. I don't like fighting games where the input lag probably suffers most. It's impossible to know without trying it and it's not cheap enough just to take a punt on and test out.

I'll be completely honest with you, I love my MiSTer but I don't think you're going to be missing out that much if the two best aspects (accuracy and low latency) are not that important to you. A Raspberry Pi with Lakka or a PC just running Retroarch might be more than enough. The Pi4's CPU is fast enough to run Mesen, which is pretty much the best software NES emulator there is. If you love NES games, it's exceptionally accurate. You'll have a great time with that. You also might not enjoy the fact that a lot of MiSTer cores don't have save states (since they're significantly harder to implement in FPGA) so saving is entirely up to whether the original games allowed for it. GB, GBA and NES are the only ones with the feature so far.

I would say get a Raspberry Pi today. Have a good time with it. If you want something different later on, the MiSTer isn't going anywhere. But you don't have to make the investment right now if you don't know what difference it would make. Maybe try someone else's if you get the chance? But otherwise, don't worry about it.

Haven't used myself but I have heard that there is the SiDi FPGA board, which seems to run most MIST things, including the 8 and 16 bit consoles. You might want to look into that if you want something cheaper but still FPGA quality.

You get what you pay for. Short answer

To be completely honest, I have a Pi 3b+ with a Pi2Scart hat, a full Mister set, both hooked up to the same CRT, and for some systems you wouldn't notice a difference. If anything, the Mister has the edge for a crisper display (VGA to Scart), whereas the Pi I have to use specific scripts and video-modes to get the best from it.
For example, on the Pi, connected to a CRT via Pi2Scart, the best picture comes from using super resolutions, such as 1920x240. This is the best way to get near-pixel-perfect horizontal and vertical scaling. Now flick between inputs on my Sony CRT, from Pi to Mister, and while the Mister has that cleaner sharper image - you wouldn't know the difference on less demanding cores such as 8-bit machines, or old arcade machines. Newer cores from the 16-bit era and the Mister is the better option because it's as close to a SNES or Megadrive as you are going to get, short of buying the actual real hardware.
A lot of the latency, and input lag would come from the display used, and whatever USB joysticks/joypads you use. There is a latency list on here for USB joysticks, if you can find any of the lower latency controllers. And if you use a modern LCD monitor, or TV, then you need to look for whatever latency these add to whatever you buy. My old 60hz Sharp LCD TV had huge input lag, it didn't have a game mode, and I measured as high as 60ms. My LG is much better, but still way higher than my PC monitor. Connect a Pi to a CRT, and that should bring any input lag right down to just any lag coming from the Pi emulators.

Most people on FPGA are either looking for accuracy or elimination of lag.
You won't find as "lush" a configurable environment, as many savestates or other "modern" features, or as wide an array of machines implemented on MiSTer as on MAME/Pi.

On the subject of lag: this ends up being a very individual thing. Some people are less sensitive to it, and I'm not going to make any assumptions about any individuals on this point. I can say that I didn't notice it at the dawn of emulation (although it was definitely there) because I was simply impressed that emulation could implement so much of the underlying games. As time passed, I noticed more and more differences between emulation and the originals, and searched for a way to eliminate these differences.

If you're the same as me on the subject of lag, I suggest getting an emulation machine until lag irks you. Keep in mind that eliminating lag will not just involve the MiSTer device, but also you'd need to be aware of monitor lag and controller lag.

As for accuracy, many of the cores in MiSTer are approximately as accurate as their best emulation counterparts. This doesn't mean that they are perfect, but that there is still some missing information about the machine that needs to be learned.

On the other hand, there are many core in MiSTer which have gone that extra step and researched these differences, discovered how the worked, and implemented the "correct" behaviour, rendering them superior to their MAME (or any emulator) counterparts. Since the information is open-source, the computer-based emulators have access to this information and can implement these features at a later date, so you can consider this to be probably a matter of time.

For accuracy, you may need to research the specific cores you are interested in. I can say unambiguously that the PC Engine core on MiSTer (TGFX-16) is superior to any emulator available currently, but I can't honestly speak much to comparisons of other cores.

If you're on a budget and don't play many lag-sensitive games, definitely go for RPi. The difference in accuracy/lag exists, but is often blown out proportion, seeing as most people won't feel or see it. I used RPi3 for couple of years before MiSTer and it was pretty decent.

echoing what everyone else said

if you just want something cheap to play retro, then get a rasp pi.
optimize it for input lag, get a couple USB controllers (iBuffalo) and be done.

this was my thought process for something that a family/young kids/coworkers in a break room would use.
the rasp pi is cheap enough to not worry about, and if it breaks, F*** it, get a new one.

now, if youre looking for something a little more premium/accurate, definitely consider getting a mister.
youre on the mister forum, so our opinions will be biased towards getting a FPGA device (which is unparalleled at this point in time).

i can say, the mister has been one of the coolest pieces of electronics ive bought in a long time

Are there any bare metal images for pi emulation? When I used retropie it used to do my head in how long it took linux and the front end to load, even on a fast SD card.

With MiSTer I can turn it on and it boots in literally a couple of seconds, and I can just switch it off when I'm done without any safe shutdown scripts or other malarky. The pi might be flashy with all the metadata and video clips for games, but the MiSTer works better where it counts.

caffeinekid wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 9:01 pm Are there any bare metal images for pi emulation? When I used retropie it used to do my head in how long it took linux and the front end to load, even on a fast SD card.

With MiSTer I can turn it on and it boots in literally a couple of seconds, and I can just switch it off when I'm done without any safe shutdown scripts or other malarky. The pi might be flashy with all the metadata and video clips for games, but the MiSTer works better where it counts.

You need some sort of OS to handle input via USB and interacting with the graphical hardware, and or bluetooth, filesystem IO and more I don't know of any emulator that would handle all of that is why they use a barebones Linux to handle that for them. Even the MiSTer does that but the Linux really only handles input, bluetooth and networking and file system loading. Sorgelig just was smart when making the MiSTer project only touch the SD card and write when absolutely necessary and keeping everything dead simple so you could just turn it on or unplug it without much worries or effort.

With the MiSTer, I'm very impressed with the low latency ("lag") and the fact that the screen refresh rate matches that of the system being emulated, e.g. 50 Hz for the Spectrum core (one of my favourites). This eliminates tearing and stuttering.

I'm not so impressed about accuracy in general, though. It depends on the core, but in many cases the implementation of certain parts of the machine is purely based on guesswork, and on making an FPGA configuration that matches the observed behaviour up to the FPGA programmer's ability, but lacking detail on the handling of special cases.

I mention this because I was sold that the MiSTer cores had basically the maximum accuracy possible, and this turned out to be true in some cases, but false in others.

I'm all for software emulation (especially 3D systems) but it's best to do it on a powerful desktop PC with a good CPU and GPU.
Chances are you have a machine like that already, so might as well use it (and then it's free).

I haven't tried the RPi4 and the latest distros, but my experience with Pi2 and Pi3 was it was too under-powered to emulate well, and it was really fiddly to update the system whenever new features came up. That's the fault of the distro more than the hardware, of course, but it's very hit and miss. I also dislike the time it takes for the RPi to boot; MiST is instant-on and MiSTer is almost instant (2-3 seconds).

MiSTer does have a small learning curve, but when I learnt the basics I found myself wishing to have the same options in other emulators. It's hard for me now to use commercial emulation boxes because they feel too restrictive or have glaring flaws due to mediocre execution. For example, I got an Arcade1Up for SF2 and noticed issues with the upscaling right away (shimmering that almost feels like tearing). I modded the cab to have a MiSTer and now I enjoy a much better picture (and yes, input lag is fantastic, the modded LCD screen turned out to be almost as responsive as my PVM).

Nowadays MiSTer can use a RPi (+ a special hat) as a MIDI box (see the MT32pi project), it's great if you are into oldschool DOS and Amiga games.

caffeinekid wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 9:01 pm Are there any bare metal images for pi emulation? When I used retropie it used to do my head in how long it took linux and the front end to load, even on a fast SD card.

With MiSTer I can turn it on and it boots in literally a couple of seconds, and I can just switch it off when I'm done without any safe shutdown scripts or other malarky. The pi might be flashy with all the metadata and video clips for games, but the MiSTer works better where it counts.

Forget "retro images", and definitely forget retropie. Trash. Raspbian lite provides much better boot times. I made a guide on my githib gist account.

Your spot on about the mister and killing power. That alone is enough for me. Easy, simple, fast. Can run a nice front end on the pi. I stopped development of attract layouts/plugins/modules because it never ends trying to perfect it, with no compensation.

Raspberry pie tends to be really frustrating and obnoxious to get working right, at least in the case of Retro pi which is really poorly designed from a user standpoint. Mister is known to be for enthusiasts - but it’s really a case of “it just works”. It is very surprisingly easy to work with, it continually surprised me with that when I got mine.

you could always use a pc to emulate whatever you want.

I'd been messing with C64 and Amiga emulation in many forms for years until I got a MiSTer. I would have gotten a Minimig or Mist actually at the time, but just never could justify the cost. Now with MiSTer I have a damn near perfect C64 and Amiga 500, which were my primary interests and of which I still owned actual hardware. The MiSTer is so good that I finally parted with my original gear.

I thought I was just getting a bit rusty with playing old games, until I connected my MiSTer to a CRT. All of a sudden games that require fast reaction were so much easier (I first noticed that playing Shadow of the Beast on the Amiga core).

Even if you don't like fighting games... those millisecs do matter on games like Megaman, Donkey Kong, to some degree Sonic and other platformers. Imagine missing a jump no several in Megaman 1-3, whiffed jump equals DEATH! I don't recall the number of millisecs you have to deal with in regards to the Pi, I do recall seeing several video reviews of MiSTer that said it's enough.

Captain FPGA wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 11:16 am Even if you don't like fighting games... those millisecs do matter on games like Megaman, Donkey Kong, to some degree Sonic and other platformers. Imagine missing a jump no several in Megaman 1-3, whiffed jump equals DEATH! I don't recall the number of millisecs you have to deal with in regards to the Pi, I do recall seeing several video reviews of MiSTer that said it's enough.

First time I got an lcd, playing super mario on snes, I kept falling in pits. It took a while to figure out it was the lcd. I went back to crt.

The parts that are specific to a Pi setup are minimal cost. Controllers, SD and such all carry over. There's very little reason *not* to try it and see if it makes you happy.

redsteakraw wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 11:37 pm

caffeinekid wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 9:01 pm Are there any bare metal images for pi emulation? When I used retropie it used to do my head in how long it took linux and the front end to load, even on a fast SD card.

With MiSTer I can turn it on and it boots in literally a couple of seconds, and I can just switch it off when I'm done without any safe shutdown scripts or other malarky. The pi might be flashy with all the metadata and video clips for games, but the MiSTer works better where it counts.

You need some sort of OS to handle input via USB and interacting with the graphical hardware, and or bluetooth, filesystem IO and more I don't know of any emulator that would handle all of that is why they use a barebones Linux to handle that for them. Even the MiSTer does that but the Linux really only handles input, bluetooth and networking and file system loading. Sorgelig just was smart when making the MiSTer project only touch the SD card and write when absolutely necessary and keeping everything dead simple so you could just turn it on or unplug it without much worries or effort.

There are some baremetal emulators for the Pi. They are in various stages of completion. I haven't tried them myself, but ZX Baremetal and BMC64 seem to be in a quite satisfying state:

https://accentual.com/bmc64/
http://zxmini.speccy.org/en/index.html

Here is a quite old list (3 years old) of baremetal emulators for the Pi

https://www.reddit.com/r/emulation/comm ... emulators/

I never tried any of these myself.

Thanks for everyone's input. Regarding the low latency of the Mister that everyone mentions - does this also apply if using a LCD TV via HDMI or is it really to do with viewing on a CRT? I would be using a LCD so I wonder if then the Mister would suffer just the same as a Pi would. I wouldn't be buying the analog IO. If I go for either it would be the digital IO.

It depends on your LCD display. Some add nearly nothing in terms of lag, and some add 50 milliseconds which is beyond reason.
TimeSleuth is a device which can measure the lag of a display at various resolutions.

Quasar wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 6:54 pm Thanks for everyone's input. Regarding the low latency of the Mister that everyone mentions - does this also apply if using a LCD TV via HDMI or is it really to do with viewing on a CRT? I would be using a LCD so I wonder if then the Mister would suffer just the same as a Pi would. I wouldn't be buying the analog IO. If I go for either it would be the digital IO.

Depends on the TV/Screen that is used.
If you have a fast screen then there is no lag with the mister, but would be at least some with a pi or pc running emulators.

And flatpanel TV´s do in most cases have a bit too a crapton of lag, a flat Computer screen have a higher chance of having less lag (but can off course also have a crap ton of lag).
So google your specific tv and try to find out what it has, but can sadly be impossible to find in many cases.

I use my MiSTer on an Acer PC monitor and it works brilliantly - I think it's something like 2ms refresh.

On an LED or OLED TV things might be different - dependant on the processing of the image. If it has a "game mode" or just scan you will probably have a decent time.

Ha, missed a bunch of responses. Still, I'll leave this up.

The input lag is additive. You'll get display lag coupled with emulation lag. The MiSTer will still have a small amount of lag from an LCD (although this highly depends on if this is a TV or monitor and the brand), but it'll be less than what you'd get with emulation + LCD. Basically, think of your display lag as a fixed cost you won't get rid of with any solution unless you use a CRT.

I'll also note that, depending on your choice of controller with MiSTer, you may get some input lag there. In general, most wired controllers are less than a frame, though, so that wouldn't be an issue.

Much like some other folks have mentioned, I think if you're looking at a Pi4, the lag is getting low enough that you won't notice in most games. I'd argue that only a few games truly need as fast a response as possible, like Punch-Out!!.

Thing is I guess cost is all relative.

A raspberry pi 4 plus decent power supply, heatsink, case, etc. - it's knocking on the door (for me when I purchased mine - I have a Pi4 as well) for the same price as a DE10-Nano (which comes in a good enough case already). I already had a spare USB hub that was compatible.

The mister, once set up is WAY nicer to use and manage.

The pi 4 does a decent job of emulating more recent hardware (e.g., dreamcast) so if that's on your radar then the Pi might be a better bet if you can have only one - but if you're looking for something that "feels" right in terms of how smooth things run, how it responds, etc.... for 1990 and earlier systems the MiSTer is just superior IMHO and the real world price isn't that different for an entry level mister setup (DE10 Nano + USB hub).

You don't need an SDRAM, IO board, USB hub board, fancy case, etc. to get started with a bunch of the cores. A base DE10-Nano has almost everything you need. In fact if you have USB ports on a monitor you could maybe even just use the USB hub in your monitor if you get an appropriate cable to hook the mister up to it with.

Yeah, the MiSTer will end up more expensive in the long run if you want to run everything it can run... but its a better experience for the older platforms.

For ~1992+ hardware emulation though the MiSTer can't really do it yet.

So ideally you want both.... Pi4 is certainly more flexible.