MiSTer FPGA Forum

akeley wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 3:12 pm "According to some crude string matching, just barely over half of users use some kind of CRT"

That's actually a a fairly big result, for what is usually portrayed as tiny minority.

aberu wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 4:34 pm There is no way to realistically post-stratify these results to adjust for things like sampling bias. I mention sampling bias because the kind of person that responds to this survey may be a more enthusiastic and engaged MiSTer user which might oversample for CRT users. So we'll never really know how to fully interpret the results. So it's a fun survey and take it with a little grain of salt.

aberu wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 4:34 pm This is the first gaming related survey where my age is UNDER the median lol. I'm 36 though, so only by a hair (or rather whatever is left of my hair).

akeley wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 3:12 pm "According to some crude string matching, just barely over half of users use some kind of CRT"

That's actually a a fairly big result, for what is usually portrayed as tiny minority.

Gonna be an "ackchyually" guy right now since I'm married to a scientist and read papers regularly for fun, etc... There is no way to realistically post-stratify these results to adjust for things like sampling bias. I mention sampling bias because the kind of person that responds to this survey may be a more enthusiastic and engaged MiSTer user which might oversample for CRT users. So we'll never really know how to fully interpret the results. So it's a fun survey and take it with a little grain of salt. I would expect a full picture of them to be like 35% of users or so.

I have a CRT and I use mine with a CRT about 10% of the time. If I answered this survey I would be lumped into that almost 50% estimate, despite CRT use for me primarily being so I can recreate behavior of issues people have so I can help them out or recreate their bugs and report them. (I mainly have a CRT just for a retro gaming setup in a guest room, that's all)

So I wouldn't be a "CRT user" per se. I wonder how many of the CRT users are similar

Awesome survey though for sure, I especially was also surprised that about 25% of people bought a pre-configured, but the 75% might be another effect of the sampling bias of the pool (more engaged active users which participate in this poll might be more likely to be technically inclined, and therefore more likely to build it themselves).

akeley wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 6:04 pm

aberu wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 4:34 pm There is no way to realistically post-stratify these results to adjust for things like sampling bias. I mention sampling bias because the kind of person that responds to this survey may be a more enthusiastic and engaged MiSTer user which might oversample for CRT users. So we'll never really know how to fully interpret the results. So it's a fun survey and take it with a little grain of salt.

Right. But it's the same with most surveys and studies, even those really, really "scientific" ones which try. Since this one is obviously for fun, there's no need to split hair about it, and we might as well pretend that the results are somewhat accurate, otherwise the whole exercise becomes completely meaningless.

In any case, even your thoroughly scientific "35%" is still not a bad result, which was kinda my original point

akeley wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 6:04 pm

aberu wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 4:34 pm There is no way to realistically post-stratify these results to adjust for things like sampling bias. I mention sampling bias because the kind of person that responds to this survey may be a more enthusiastic and engaged MiSTer user which might oversample for CRT users. So we'll never really know how to fully interpret the results. So it's a fun survey and take it with a little grain of salt.

Right. But it's the same with most surveys and studies, even those really, really "scientific" ones which try. Since this one is obviously for fun, there's no need to split hair about it, and we might as well pretend that the results are somewhat accurate, otherwise the whole exercise becomes completely meaningless.

In any case, even your thoroughly scientific "35%" is still not a bad result, which was kinda my original point

akeley wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 3:12 pm "According to some crude string matching, just barely over half of users use some kind of CRT"

That's actually a a fairly big result, for what is usually portrayed as tiny minority.

darksakul wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 9:32 pm

akeley wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 3:12 pm "According to some crude string matching, just barely over half of users use some kind of CRT"

That's actually a a fairly big result, for what is usually portrayed as tiny minority.

LCD use is about 77.5%

Also CRT use is a dead end, as there no more CRTs being made, really.
Sure there that one guy who makes CRT Tubes for special case scenarios, but that not for us.
He hand makes a few a year for thousands of dollars for excusive customers and isn't interested in video games or micro computers at all.

And no one wants to fund the tooling it take to make a small batch of CRT tubes.
And that assuming we find a factory that willing to put up with making antiquated technology like that.

aberu wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 10:15 pm

darksakul wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 9:32 pm

akeley wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 3:12 pm "According to some crude string matching, just barely over half of users use some kind of CRT"

That's actually a a fairly big result, for what is usually portrayed as tiny minority.

LCD use is about 77.5%

Also CRT use is a dead end, as there no more CRTs being made, really.
Sure there that one guy who makes CRT Tubes for special case scenarios, but that not for us.
He hand makes a few a year for thousands of dollars for excusive customers and isn't interested in video games or micro computers at all.

And no one wants to fund the tooling it take to make a small batch of CRT tubes.
And that assuming we find a factory that willing to put up with making antiquated technology like that.

And that guy is only making them with old parts that aren't manufactured anymore, and he's running out anyways.

Personally, the future I think is getting something like the OSSC pro to introduce a CRT shader pipeline in the FPGA that's on it, simulating an openGL system. There is university research from 2020 where someone designed a GPU on the Cyclone V in the DE10-nano using about 25% of it's logic that beat the performance of an Nvidia Tegra K1's GPU at a tiny fraction of the power usage. I bet someone could far improve upon the CRT shaders used in software emulation, and it could be done with only 1 frame of lag if it's highly parallelized all the way up to a framebuffer. Essentially, FPGA-based simulation of a CRT.

This would not fit on the MiSTer project currently in the framework, it's too huge, but I bet it could be done as an external project.

thorr wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 12:33 am The day I can play Duck Hunt natively without any tricks on a flat panel along with native resolutions and refresh rates is the day I will consider dumping my CRT's. Until then, long live CRT's!

aberu wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 10:15 pm

darksakul wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 9:32 pm

akeley wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 3:12 pm "According to some crude string matching, just barely over half of users use some kind of CRT"

That's actually a a fairly big result, for what is usually portrayed as tiny minority.

LCD use is about 77.5%

Also CRT use is a dead end, as there no more CRTs being made, really.
Sure there that one guy who makes CRT Tubes for special case scenarios, but that not for us.
He hand makes a few a year for thousands of dollars for excusive customers and isn't interested in video games or micro computers at all.

And no one wants to fund the tooling it take to make a small batch of CRT tubes.
And that assuming we find a factory that willing to put up with making antiquated technology like that.

And that guy is only making them with old parts that aren't manufactured anymore, and he's running out anyways.

retrodroid wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 10:51 pm The 8-bit Guy on YouTube just did that for an old Apple monitor that had been lying around outside for decades in Houston TX, where the rain and humidity, plus heat are substantial.

retrodroid wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 10:51 pm There are likely millions of old CRTs lying around in dumps around the world that could conceivably be restored.

aberu wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 4:34 pm This is the first gaming related survey where my age is UNDER the median lol. I'm 36 though, so only by a hair (or rather whatever is left of my hair).

aberu wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 4:34 pm I have a CRT and I use mine with a CRT about 10% of the time. If I answered this survey I would be lumped into that almost 50% estimate...

...So I wouldn't be a "CRT user" per se. I wonder how many of the CRT users are similar

aberu wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 4:34 pm I especially was also surprised that about 25% of people bought a pre-configured, but the 75% might be another effect of the sampling bias of the pool

MiSTer_Kirk wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 1:45 am

thorr wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 12:33 am The day I can play Duck Hunt natively without any tricks on a flat panel along with native resolutions and refresh rates is the day I will consider dumping my CRT's. Until then, long live CRT's!

Well said. I would never swap any of my 14 CRTs with any of my LCD/PC Monitors.
And, I have yet to see a shader, anywhere on planet earth, that can simulate a vector monitor, not even close. There is a reason I keep a real Vextrex. Emulation, simulation, and FPGA are just pure crap, and look nothing like the real thing.

bazza_12 wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 7:57 am I'm the same I have CRT however, spend most of the time using a modern hdmi monitor.

Blitzwing wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 7:39 am I think if we start to see OLED monitors with extremely fast response times and a future iteration of MiSTer with a larger FPGA or ARM side with a GPU we could make it pretty close to indistinguishable from a CRT using good shaders and fake scan lines.

thorr wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 5:00 pm Totally agree. The "alive" description is a great way to describe it. Your VGA CRT arcing is a very bad sign. Mine was doing that for about 2 weeks and then it died completely. Enjoy it in its final days!

MiSTer_Kirk wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 11:49 am

Blitzwing wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 7:39 am I think if we start to see OLED monitors with extremely fast response times and a future iteration of MiSTer with a larger FPGA or ARM side with a GPU we could make it pretty close to indistinguishable from a CRT using good shaders and fake scan lines.

Will never happen. Fake scanlines are utter shite, excuse the language, but I really hate putting lines on the screen and calling them scanlines - they look NOTHING like a CRT.
The same can be said for the latest advanced shaders in Retroarch - which we will never see on Mister because it doesn't have a modern GPU, these modern shaders look similar, but side-by-side they still look a little flat and lifeless, lack the glow and brightness you get from a CRT. CRT's are alive, there is something organic about the image, the glow in a dark room, the screen is alive. Whereas, on my modern 4k HDR 144hz PC Monitor, even using hDR, it still seems flat and boring. Old games were not meant for modern displays, they just don't look right, especially if the artists of the time used CRT artefacts for tricks to better the image - you won't see them on an LCD.

Digital Foundry, a year ago, connected a Sony CRT to a modern gaming PC, and came to the conclusion that it was better than modern displays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8BVTHxc4LM&t=4s

And yes, flybacks will die, tubes will stop working, my VGA PC CRT is arching - and those sounds it makes scare me, as does discharging a CRT. But when we get to that stage I will not bother with retro gaming anymore, I will probably be too old anyway.

kinda hate myself for saying warmth