MiSTer FPGA Forum

I have an opportunity to acquire a PVM monitor. To anyone whose used one, how does it compare to the RetroTink5x on an OLED? It seems to me that the only thing PVMs have over modern tech is scanlines for 240p. Is the PVM display that much better than modern displays with a proper upscaler?

If it isn't super expensive, and has RGB input it would be worth playing with. Should be able to resell it easily if you don't need it.

$1000 for PVM-20M2U. Is the PVM experience worth that? Seems its just inflated prices.

$1000?! That's ridiculous! I love my PVMs and bought most 10-15 years ago but I wouldn't dream of paying that sort of money for one now.

Sure the PVM/CRT experience for retro games feels more authentic, but aging tubes/electronics for silly money doesn't make it a nice rabbit hole to go down these days. You'll get far more mileage out of an OLED, RGB modded consoles and a decent scaler, or better yet the MiSTer!

Haven't used a PVM but I hear often from those that do that a VGA CRT monitor isn't far from the experience for vastly cheaper/free, you just have to convert 15khz (240p) to 31khz somehow. Fortunately Mister has a built-in scandoubler, including a scanline effect, that makes that part pretty easy. I think the Retrotink should be able to scale real consoles to 2x pretty well also (though you'd have to convert back to analog somehow)

CRTs don't necessarily look the best but damn, I do think playing sidescrolling action games on them feels better. Combination of zero input lag and minimal ghosting, which isn't easy to achieve with modern displays. These are properties that any random CRT would have too, PVMs are just much sharper. Your OLED does have BFI that does the motion thing pretty well but TVs still tend to have a bit of lag compared to say a modern gaming monitor, which on the other hand tends to lack OLED and a good BFI for 60hz stuff.

earthprime wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:25 pm $1000 for PVM-20M2U. Is the PVM experience worth that? Seems its just inflated prices.

I would say that is super expensive.. Keep watching for them. Or look in e-waste areas.

These are unique!

One of the best features of PVMs for me over any other display for legacy / retro hardware is their ability to natively sync with not just NTSC, but also PAL/SECAM, as well as a lot of the various wacky arcade PCB refresh rates.

Basically a PVM lets you natively display any SD era console/computer across worldwide regions without sync issues (like Joe had on the recent GameSack episode).

If you are into original systems, having a PVM can be handy.

Retro games will always look best on the display hardware they were meant for, CRT.
And this OLED shite is just that, shite. It will never match a pro-grade PVM, or CRT. But you don't NEED a PVM, a consumer-grade CRT will do far better than any modern rubbish.

ARCADEAGES wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:38 am
These are unique!

One of the best features of PVMs for me over any other display for legacy / retro hardware is their ability to natively sync with not just NTSC, but also PAL/SECAM, as well as a lot of the various wacky arcade PCB refresh rates.

Basically a PVM lets you natively display any SD era console/computer across worldwide regions without sync issues (like Joe had on the recent GameSack episode).

If you are into original systems, having a PVM can be handy.

I think most later CRT TVs will work with both Pal and ntsc. This certainly applies to pal TVs, at least. Not just with rgb either - even using composite!

Seems you can feed a 1080p from your Retrotink 5x into a VGA CRT and get pretty good results too, with a more tapered scanline effect. So it could look pretty close to what you see on your OLED, but now with the improved responsiveness and motion of a CRT! (5x has a 1200p mode but some people had trouble with it, possibly due to reduced blanking?)

C-R-T wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:48 am I think most later CRT TVs will work with both Pal and ntsc. This certainly applies to pal TVs, at least. Not just with rgb either - even using composite!

Definitely a PAL thing; it's hard to fine consumer NTSC TVs that will sync to 50hz!

VGA monitor definitely works but boy is it flickery.

In any case, my advice is to try a PVM before you buy one. As everyone says, the image quality is stunning and it's probably the best you can have, yes, BUT it produces very sharp scanlines which I personaly don't like very much. Maybe you'll love it, maybe not, so try it anyway.

C-R-T wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:48 am
I think most later CRT TVs will work with both Pal and ntsc. This certainly applies to pal TVs, at least. Not just with rgb either - even using composite!

I've not encountered that in North America. Wish I did! How do you think those PAL tv's would fare with odd arcade PCB refresh-rates?

One thing to remember is that later CRTs (those made in the early and mid 2000s right before 16:9 HD became the standard) may be designed for 480p progressive scan signals, which will not be as ideal for retro games that output a 240p signal. These are great for early 2000s consoles that output 480p, but not great for anything before or since. It's similar to why a VGA monitor is less ideal for retro consoles versus a 240p PVM or an RGB (modded) 240p CRT television.

In the UK, towards the end of the CRT era, pretty much every TV came with RGB SCART and NTSC/PAL 50/60hz support.

I used to have a cheap "Beko" 14inch CRT for playing snes/amiga/N64 using real hardware, and it took every video signal I could throw at it.
I feel a bit silly for throwing it away, because now I'm scouring ebay for the exact same model.

I own 2 PVMs. I think they look great but I personally wouldn't pay more then $200-300. The real advantage is able to view between NTSC/PAL. You can save some money and get a VGA monitor and do the same thing. You won't get 240p but if you are using it just for mister then it shouldn't matter. If you insist on having 240p, then you can get a consumer CRT that has component input that looks almost as good as a RGB PVM.

PVMs are good, but not worth their prices.
Given the current tech with low lag panels, great upscalers, et al., I don't see anymore the point in buying CRTs.
I grew up with them, had RGB from the start (excepted Famicom, but heh) and I had my time with these.
Current panels are not perfect, but they are almost perfect and erase most of CRTs default.
If you are picky, lag is where CRTs still shine, but besides that, they have lost any other benefit today.

Get a good consumer CRT set, pvm are not worth the premium at least for Europeans.

Any decent CRT is miles better than any of the current upscaling solutions on LCDs

If you are in Europe like me there is no point in getting a pvm unless you find one for free or cheap. I kept an eye on free ads in my area and picked up a Sony trinitron kv-29x5l. With proper rgb cables it looks better than my pvm in my opinion. Panasonic and phillips crt tvs also display rgb signals beautifully to my eye but I always prefer the service menu options on the trinitron for tweaking. If you are in America you could look into rgb modding a tv or I think you guys had component on a lot of tv's which is pretty much the same as rgb to me.

Compared to an oled if you disregard the smaller size and bulkiness of the screen the crt wins hands down to my eye. The colours are more vivid and natural, the contrast between bright and dark is stunning and seeing things in motion is incredible because there is no drop in resolution when an object moves or the screen scrolls.

A decent PVM in America costs in the $1000 rage. It depends what you want to do.

1) Since none of our TVs (IN USA) have support for PAL/50hz so if you're looking to play that type of content in an analog format it's your best bet, however you could use a VGA monitor for this as well from what I understand

2) If we ever see support for Midway / Seibu SPI, VGA monitors and select PVMs will be the only only way to run these games as they run at oddball frequency's (54hz & 55hz IIRC) that consumer CRTs don't support.

Apart from that, unless you REALLY like the look of a PVM those are the advantages over a CRT, but are also gained from a VGA Monitor.

Moving outside of MiSTer though, I'd prefer a PVM given the choice as you can still use other consoles on them that MiSTer lacks support for in Composite / Component, something you lose with a VGA monitor without other tools.

C-R-T wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:48 am

ARCADEAGES wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:38 am I think most later CRT TVs will work with both Pal and ntsc. This certainly applies to pal TVs, at least. Not just with rgb either - even using composite!

Yeah I’ve got a great little PAL region 21” Sony consumer CRT (sold in Australia) that I primarily have NTSC consoles connected to it via scart to component and works great.

I have an OLED also but definitely prefer the crt for the look, colors and motion and scanlines are just great.