MiSTer FPGA Forum

I have just seen terasic increase the price of the de10 nano to $208

https://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page ... 6&PartNo=8

Expect more of this as the problems in the industry grow.

Glad I got in at the $130 mark! It is crazy to watch it keep increasing in price, not something we're used to with tech products outside of scalping on ebay.

Is the price going up or their subsidy going down?

This is a good time to remind people that it's not necessary to buy the whole stack to be able to fully enjoy MiSter. You can save a substantial amount of money if you skip the I/O board and USB hub. Or even go with 32MB SDRAM instead of 128MB, for the sake of a few arcade games.

EvilRyu wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:05 pm Is the price going up or their subsidy going down?

No, I think the subsidized price remains the same since last time's global 'retail' hike.

No, the retail price is rising. It hasn't hit all retail venues yet though. The Terasic site is just an early warning indicator.

The description of why this board is so much less expensive than other FGPA boards (generally over $500) has historically been because the manufacturers of the chips are all subsidizing by offering substantial discounts on the prices of their parts, in the hopes that users will buy more of that particular part, after having become familiar with its operation.

Take your pick at the reason why though:
- parts availability during a collossal period of shortage across the entire electronics industry (or decreasing desire to subsidize in that environment)
- realization that many boards are going to users who will not be developing FPGA code for that FPGA or the other devices (or decreasing desire to subsidize in that environment)
- Aging board and devices, and possible decrease in the desire to "push" those devices (causing decreasing desire to subsidize in that environment)

I work in the electronics industry, mostly industrial stuff. Parts are getting seriously difficult to find (and the FPGAs are gone) even “simple” stuff like discretes and connectors! We’re starting to rely more and more on the spot market and those prices can be 10-100 times higher than normal - or more! “Scalpers” are a huge problem in this space. Usually the options are either pay up or stop making stuff. No end in sight either. Stuff will keep getting more and more expensive.

The DE10 Price has raised over the past years.
There were times when the complete kit cost far less than the individual FPGA chip installed there. With every price increase, of course, this advantage dwindles further and further.

The advantage is still large because Sorg has spent the last several years writing a framework for it. Deciding to go with a different board means starting over. Plus the price seems to be going up on most FPGA boards, not just the DE10-NANO.

I was hoping this was an older thread that was bumped, but it appears I'm wrong. I was thinking about putting together a starter MiSTer kit for a friend as a surprise gift. At this rate it won't be a surprise, and he'll have to pitch in for it too

tankjr wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:46 am I was hoping this was an older thread that was bumped, but it appears I'm wrong. I was thinking about putting together a starter MiSTer kit for a friend as a surprise gift. At this rate it won't be a surprise, and he'll have to pitch in for it too

it would still be a surprise then lololol

Well we can blame, Joe Biden and his inflationary budgets, the chip shortage and Drought in Taiwan, the rising popularity and mainstream attention brought to this project, the Federal reserve and over 1% compound monthly inflation. And the rising expenses of shipping containers, shipping and general logistics that is plaguing everyone. Seeing as Intel is subsidizing the project there are only two choices either they raise prices and raise production and Intel spends the same amount and everyone can get one easily or they keep it at the current price and with rising demand we end up with shortages and scalpers and overall pain point in obtaining the DE 10 Nano. I say given all the facts of the situation this is a good call. I would be pissed if I was subsidizing something and the prices would still be high due to scalpers but they would be getting their profit off of my subsidization. So good call.

The semi conductor market has been in a right state for some time and will continue throughout next year. The issues started long before Covid which then affected the supply chains

The price increase is most likely due to Intel having to pay more per wafer from TSMC. Intel never moved the Altera products to their silicon processes after the buy out

dmckean wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:46 am The advantage is still large because Sorg has spent the last several years writing a framework for it. Deciding to go with a different board means starting over. Plus the price seems to be going up on most FPGA boards, not just the DE10-NANO.

My advantage related to the price of the DE10 compared to the unit price of the single FPGA chip.
If this price advantage melts further, alternatives based on modules with the same FPGA chip could become interesting. So far, a custom design has not paid off because you paid less for the complete board than for the individual chip. But of course you're right, all prices are currently rising due to the chip crisis.

What would a custom board look like? Edge connector for console cartridge addons? Rear facing IO with PC style Stacked USB ports, built in high speed 32MB ram and expandable high capacity ram port. Duel Snac ports possibly DB-9? Built in Difficulty / Black and white, select and resest button breakouts for cases?

I think that cannot be answered so clearly, as everyone would certainly have different ideas.

redsteakraw wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:17 pm What would a custom board look like?

Probably one for each vendor that offers their custom add-ons now...

You all know this is a $300+ board right?
The only reason the DE 10 Nano was so cheap was because of the subsidies Intel provided for education and to promote FPGA technology.
And the subsidy is separate from the academic discount.

_There_ _is_ _no_ _subsidy_.

I wish this rumor would be put to rest once and for all.

Could you elaborate? First I hear of this.

Being a board targeted at universities, and given that every chipmaker's name is plastered all over this - and the sum of the costs of the individual parts are greater than the price of the board - what would you prefer to call this phenomenon ? Marketing dollars ?

The costs of the parts (at wholesale - and given they are both manufacturer and supplier, that matters and why there IS NO SUBSIDY) are *not* greater than the price of the board, and Intel _does_ make a (smaller) profit off every board sold...it's simply priced for the target audience. Not very difficult to understand.

Subsidize implies that somebody is paying the difference, like a Government or University. Selling something at below costs, like some video game consoles are, with the hopes that it can generate revenue streams via other channels (like selling licensed games) is not subsidizing.
I don't know the details on how much this and that costs or what their overall plan is, but one likely scenario is, in collaboration between Intel and Terasic, they are producing a board and selling it at cost, below cost or just above cost with the hopes that more people get involved with FGPA programming, and possibly have them come up with new FPGA based products that will utilize their Cyclone V chips at the regular (read: expensive) price.

Is it subsidized by a federal government or university? no.

Is the price reduced on the cyclone V to the point of being sold at cost or less to Terasic? Yes.

Why is the price reduced? I think it's because Intel is number 2 in market share in the FPGA market and wants to get new engineers used to using Intel's FPGA chips and tools as a way to foster growth. Having a cost-competitive dev board out there is a way to accomplish this goal.

The specific SoC Cyclone V that is in the DE10-Nano had a higher MSRP than almost the whole DE10-Nano back at the old DE10-Nano price, so I think that's why people use the word "subsidized". Intel is doing the "subsidizing". There is also an academic discounted price, but you have to somewhat prove you are a student or a teacher to get it. This is probably where people got the word "subsidized" from.

Either way, this is mostly semantics. What intel is doing is called a "loss leader" pricing strategy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_leader

It's like selling 5 dollar margs so people buy chips and guac.

potato, vodka =D

Corporate subsidies exist.
It's how you aren't paying full price on a new Smart Phone when you sign up for a 5 year agreement.

No one paying the actual full price of the De 10 nano would be if you tried to buy the components and make it yourself.

Funny how a Dev board with a "stronger" FPGA sells for less for longer than what Analogue interactive sold for their clone consoles

Now get off your semantics kick and realize you aren't getting cheated at the recent price hike.

Yup. If you look at Felix Leger's article on the MiSTer --> https://felixleger.com/posts/2020/10/dr ... ster-fpga/

You can see a cost breakdown, you are getting a good deal all things considered.
Now this is an older article so just add on the price increases to the DE10-Nano and some of the other stuff, and it's maybe more like 450-500 today in total for this comfortable setup.

$500 < $1360

And the MiSTer plays many more cores and has more capabilities overall.

Nice.

That Analogue vs De-10 chart has little to do with subsidies. A $200 Super NT or Mega SG could replicate all Analogue cores. You're rebuying the same chip over and over in different devices more to support their employees creating proprietary cores, firmware, and cases. And they can make you do that because they aren't open platforms.

Now granted you are getting like a half-size Altera V versus a DE-10 for the same price, but only a handful of Mister cores (albeit some important/popular ones) really take advantage of the extra LE available.