MiSTer FPGA Forum

I've spent a lot of time watching the changes in MiSTer, and in particular how few cores now need to use the secondary SD card.

Is the secondary slot being phased out? If not, what bonus is there in using it? Looking at the wiki, I can see the only core showing as needing it is x68000, and that's changed in recent developments from what I understand.

The PC XT core currently in the early stages of being ported uses it too, so far.

I think it's fair to say it's being phased out overall? Most users seem to prefer VHDs on the main sd card.

The I/O board with the 2nd SD card slot came early in the development cycle. Many of the early computer cores would load not from a hardrive or floppy drive image, thus the 2nd SD card was needed to load any files.

That issue been worked around, and we nolonger rely on the 2nd SD card slot as much.
It probably get used for potential development of future cores.

I would rather see this worked into a second SNAC port. being close by the analog IO it would be great for analog snac devices.

Is there anything that uses this?

The Spectrum Next core can be used on the secondary card.

The secondary slot is connected to the FPGA. Often new cores use it as it is easier to implement.

I came to MiSTer too late to have any direct experience of this, but I assume that a major motivation was the history of preexisting designs that directly targeted non-SoC boards like the DE2-115 or DE0-CV. Those designs had to incorporate their own SD interfaces and file-loading functions because there was no host framework to leverage. That being the case, if one wanted to bring them up on MiSTer, the path of least resistance is to just connect their existing SD signals directly to an SD card.

redsteakraw wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 9:27 pm I would rather see this worked into a second SNAC port. being close by the analog IO it would be great for analog snac devices.

I really don't see that happening, a Snac controller port dedicated to older analog devices would require another ADC.
Other than a Tape drive (and the MiSTer has that as it's own dedicated add-on) what other devices are you trying to support?

ExCyber wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 1:18 am I came to MiSTer too late to have any direct experience of this, but I assume that a major motivation was the history of preexisting designs that directly targeted non-SoC boards like the DE2-115 or DE0-CV. Those designs had to incorporate their own SD interfaces and file-loading functions because there was no host framework to leverage. That being the case, if one wanted to bring them up on MiSTer, the path of least resistance is to just connect their existing SD signals directly to an SD card.

Most prior projects like the MiST and the Minimig (many of the MiSTer cores were ported from MiST) used custom boards and not a existing Dev Kit.
They were much more costly and made the price of entry higher.

darksakul wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 11:43 am I really don't see that happening, a Snac controller port dedicated to older analog devices would require another ADC.
Other than a Tape drive (and the MiSTer has that as it's own dedicated add-on) what other devices are you trying to support

The good news is that the MiSTer's ADC supports 8 channels, and only 2 are in use by the ADC board.

The not so good news is that the current ADC board is not suitable for audio, and for compatibility, 2 more ADC inputs might need to get used in future for audio input.

pgimeno wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 12:52 pm

darksakul wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 11:43 am I really don't see that happening, a Snac controller port dedicated to older analog devices would require another ADC.
Other than a Tape drive (and the MiSTer has that as it's own dedicated add-on) what other devices are you trying to support

The good news is that the MiSTer's ADC supports 8 channels, and only 2 are in use by the ADC board.

The not so good news is that the current ADC board is not suitable for audio, and for compatibility, 2 more ADC inputs might need to get used in future for audio input.

What would this expanded ADC input would do for you?
Edit sounds in the Amiga core?

darksakul wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 1:39 pm

pgimeno wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 12:52 pm The good news is that the MiSTer's ADC supports 8 channels, and only 2 are in use by the ADC board.

The not so good news is that the current ADC board is not suitable for audio, and for compatibility, 2 more ADC inputs might need to get used in future for audio input.

What would this expanded ADC input would do for you?
Edit sounds in the Amiga core?

I'm not sure I understand the question. The current ADC jack input is not suitable for use with audio players, and is causing problems with some, see viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4145. There may be people who are using this input for something that isn't a tape; ISTR some people plugging in some kind of controller (Pong-like maybe? I think I saw this in the 7800/2600 thread) and there may be some other people who are happy with using the ADC input for audio as it is now, and don't want that changed because it works for them.

Would be nice if the 2nd SD slot could be used as extra storage and used with all cores

Any core can use it and do whatever it wants with it.

Brettster wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 4:06 pm Would be nice if the 2nd SD slot could be used as extra storage and used with all cores

It's already used for storage, it for the FPGA to directly access files. Especially for early/beta cores.
Every MiSTer is also a dev kit.

If you really want extra storage for roms, USB like a thumb drive or a USB HDD or SSD, or Network attached storage (NAS) via the ethernet jack are far better solutions. SD cards are limited on speed in comparison.

pgimeno wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:17 pm

darksakul wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 1:39 pm

pgimeno wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 12:52 pm The good news is that the MiSTer's ADC supports 8 channels, and only 2 are in use by the ADC board.

The not so good news is that the current ADC board is not suitable for audio, and for compatibility, 2 more ADC inputs might need to get used in future for audio input.

What would this expanded ADC input would do for you?
Edit sounds in the Amiga core?

I'm not sure I understand the question. The current ADC jack input is not suitable for use with audio players, and is causing problems with some, see viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4145. There may be people who are using this input for something that isn't a tape; ISTR some people plugging in some kind of controller (Pong-like maybe? I think I saw this in the 7800/2600 thread) and there may be some other people who are happy with using the ADC input for audio as it is now, and don't want that changed because it works for them.

The existing Snac adapters,a DB9 Atari to USB adapter, or some other usb device would work better for paddles, spinners and track balls.

As per my previous question to you, what you would use the ADC for. Tape drives are always finicky, even back then unless that microcomputer has a dedicated port/drive like the C64 had. Even then I don't know why anyone would load programs to cassette other than nostalgia.

darksakul wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 11:43 am

redsteakraw wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 9:27 pm I would rather see this worked into a second SNAC port. being close by the analog IO it would be great for analog snac devices.

I really don't see that happening, a Snac controller port dedicated to older analog devices would require another ADC.
Other than a Tape drive (and the MiSTer has that as it's own dedicated add-on) what other devices are you trying to support?

What I was getting at is a future IO board could have the ADC built into this second snac adapter for use with analog controllers(duel shock, atari paddle controller, saturn 3D pad, atari 5200) it would connect to the pins like the adc does and if you wanted could have a headphone jack or a snac headphone jack for your tape loading. no functionality would be lost and you would gain analog controller support via SNAC. Since the new cores coming out have analog controllers this would be needed far more than a secondary SD card that no one uses anymore.

redsteakraw wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 8:09 pm What I was getting at is a future IO board could have the ADC built into this second snac adapter for use with analog controllers(duel shock, atari paddle controller, saturn 3D pad, atari 5200)

The existing Snac already does this to a huge degree. Consoles that have existing Snac support now can use their Analog controllers.
PSX Snac functions are (last I check) is still in early development. Atari 2600 paddles are supported via Snac and Blister, as well as the 2600 Daptor USB device. The Saturn Core is not out for public use yet. Atari 5200 controllers? Why, they are beyond terrible and break too easily.

Snac is also far from ideal, as it's very much locked to using controllers only for their native consoles.
USB adapters and USB Devices serve this function better overall as far as the MiSTer is concern.
And with Guncon2 Support, Snac isn't needed for Lightguns anymore.

redsteakraw wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 8:09 pm if you wanted could have a headphone jack or a snac headphone jack for your tape

We already have this in the existing ADC.

As for quality Audio out, you are far better capturing it off the HDMI signal. There are very good HDMI audio capture devices out there that allows for getting analog audio from a HDMi source.

I feel like you are trying to reinvent the Wheel when it's not necessary.

darksakul wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:01 am

redsteakraw wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 8:09 pm What I was getting at is a future IO board could have the ADC built into this second snac adapter for use with analog controllers(duel shock, atari paddle controller, saturn 3D pad, atari 5200)

The existing Snac already does this to a huge degree. Consoles that have existing Snac support now can use their Analog controllers.
PSX Snac functions are (last I check) is still in early development. Atari 2600 paddles are supported via Snac and Blister, as well as the 2600 Daptor USB device. The Saturn Core is not out for public use yet. Atari 5200 controllers? Why, they are beyond terrible and break too easily.

Snac is also far from ideal, as it's very much locked to using controllers only for their native consoles.
USB adapters and USB Devices serve this function better overall as far as the MiSTer is concern.
And with Guncon2 Support, Snac isn't needed for Lightguns anymore.

redsteakraw wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 8:09 pm if you wanted could have a headphone jack or a snac headphone jack for your tape

We already have this in the existing ADC.

As for quality Audio out, you are far better capturing it off the HDMI signal. There are very good HDMI audio capture devices out there that allows for getting analog audio from a HDMi source.

I feel like you are trying to reinvent the Wheel when it's not necessary.

To my knowledge and from what I was told about the 7800 core the snac cannot do analog, and I know it's limitations, you have to use the controller for that system there is only one snac port(for now) and it doesn't engage the menu. It isn't as flexible as using a daemonbite adapter or USB controller. I know this but with the 2600 and Playstation I would like to swap out the various controllers, With the 2600 you have the Keyboard controller, joystick, joystick boosters, paddle controller and racing controller when dealing with the various different control options it is easier just to keep it on SNAC and swap the controllers out like you would on your OG console.


Furthermore wouldn't it just be better to have the ADC board integrated into a SNAC as you could expose all of the analog pins and do more with it. As for the Daptor it is a nightmare to configure properly and when you are switching back and forth between different controllers it is a major pain. Don't get me wrong it is the most flexible adapter and works well but for the all in one adapter it has to make compromises and ease of setup and first use is one. At the end of the day I want to play the games not fiddle with the settings or controllers.


As for the Guncon 2 I am looking forward to that I still have mine and even one that I casted a custom aluminum trigger because the trigger broke the first week of playing Time Crisis 2 and I am stubborn and won't return things. Can't wait to play Area 51 and Die Hard Trilogy with the Guncon.

Snac will always have limitations. It's not the "do-all, all-purpose" port everyone like to think it is.
Its a direct digital interface with the FPGA. FPGA technology don't really do analog (or at least not very well) hence why there a ADC and a DAC.
You want flexibility, you want to use then external USB devices and USB adaptors. It's how the frame work is built. And it can be fiddly.

The Universal Daptor can be fiddly, I found the specialized daptors for particular systems work great. I got the one for the Bally Astrocade, as the Astreocade controller don't use the same pinout as other DB9 controllers.
Deamonbites or Ralphnet adapters are better suited.

MiSTer isn't exactly a perfect hardware recreation of the consoles/computers it mimics, its a Hardware render of the Emulation of those systems.
And as thus, we need to stop thinking of them as 1:1 with the systems it tries to mimic. And the thing about being cycle accurate isn't totally true, only a few cores achieve this and only to the benefit of achieving accuracy. There times to achieve near perfect balance between and accuracy, some actual core accuracy have to be sometimes scarified

The PSX controllers might have analog thumb sticks for the Dual Shock, but they are translated back to digital inputs as there no actual Analog pins on the PSX controller ports. Also the PSX core still in Beta, speculating on Snac features is futile at this time as the PSX don't support Snac as of yet.

Snac isn't easier, it doesn't make things easier and it was never intended to be so. Snac is used for Lightgun compatibility and compatibility with a few specialized controllers. It was never intended to be a Do-All, just a fall back last resort.
Yes Snac has virtually no added Latency, but you will feel the Latency of what ever the speeds that console core reads the Snac at.

SNAC is easier if you have diverse controller schemes that need to be swapped having a second snac with analog capabilities could help, the TRS tape loading jack could remain as there is well over enough analog input pins. As for Controllers I know how they are, I made my own daemonbite adapters and they work well. The problem is if you move between the superscope to the mouse to some other weird controller you could change the settings from the OSD or you could just swap controllers on the snac. Now I can try to get a specific adapter or whatnot for every individual controller or mess around with the Daptor and the settings with the MiSTer(pain in the butt) but having a analog capable SNAC would be helpful. Having possibly a DB-9 snac port which would work with most of the classic PCs / classic consoles that would use the analog pins. Yes USB controllers and adapters will be the best if low latency 1ms polling compatible. I made my own NES/SNES/Genesis daemonbite adapters. But I have a wide range of controllers and would like to simply plug my Atari controllers into a port and just have it work be it the 7800, paddle, driving, keyboard or booster grips. and now you either have to make a bunch of specific adapters or fiddle with a generalized adapter.