MiSTer FPGA Forum

Sorry if this has been brought up here before, but I didn't see any threads created for it. I've read elsewhere that this system was 3x as powerful as the PS1 so it's not likely to be an option. That being said I did find someone working on this which I'll link below and he says the core is almost finished. Whether it would run on the DE-10 NANO seems unlikely but maybe there's things that can be done.

http://www.ultrafp64.com/

Anyway just thought I'd start the discussion.

It has already been discussed ad nauseum; we're approaching the upper limits of what the DE10-Nano is capable of and an N64 core does not appear to be possible with the limited memory bandwidth available. There's no doubt an N64 FPGA implementation will happen but almost certainly not on the DE10-Nano even if it does have enough LEs.

with talks on the forum about a mish mash of software and hardware emulation, you never know.

This makes me wonder what we have to look forward in terms of FPGA hardware evolution over, say, the next 5 to 10 years.

I can only hope that eventually we can aspire to have a "MiSTer-er" that would be powerful enough to handle stuff like the N64 and beyond.

I'm also curious as to what the limit would be in terms of replicating hardware this way in terms of human hours needed to map out hardware that is this complex. Like, would hardware like the Dreamcast or PS2 for example be so utterly immense to implement that it would take longer than one human lifetime to implement in the way we create FPGA cores today?

I keep seeing people saying a new FPGA board in the next 5-10 years, yet I think a successor board is sooner than people realize. The chip shortage really did screw things up, but I think we're about 2-4 years away from an affordable and new more powerful FPGA board that can run the N64/DS. There are already boards that exist that can run the N64 easily and are around $400-$500. If those boards go down in price to around the sweet spot of $250-300, then I don't see why a MiSTer 2 wouldn't be in the cards. Plus, Robert Piep has already expressed interest in both platforms, yet they can't fit on MiSTer, so the only thing that's in the way are current prices.

As for cores in complexity beyond the N64 and DS, it'll be interesting if a theoretical MiSTer 2 could run anything close to Dreamcast/PS2 level games. The manhours to reverse engineer those consoles would be huge so that's the biggest issue imo. It'd be interesting to see if AI could somehow be trained to decap these consoles and write out the code in Verlilog/HDL one day.

For reference, here is the board being used for the UltraFPG64: https://digilent.com/shop/nexys-video-a ... lications/

Bunker wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 5:05 pm with talks on the forum about a mish mash of software and hardware emulation, you never know.

Such an approach would have all the same issues as the current software emulators. The N64 hardware is fast and that RDRAM has extremely low latency and the CPU and graphics could use it simultaneously. That's not going to work well with a hybrid approach.

AtomicShroom wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 5:56 pm This makes me wonder what we have to look forward in terms of FPGA hardware evolution over, say, the next 5 to 10 years.

I can only hope that eventually we can aspire to have a "MiSTer-er" that would be powerful enough to handle stuff like the N64 and beyond.

I'm also curious as to what the limit would be in terms of replicating hardware this way in terms of human hours needed to map out hardware that is this complex. Like, would hardware like the Dreamcast or PS2 for example be so utterly immense to implement that it would take longer than one human lifetime to implement in the way we create FPGA cores today?

Dreamcast and PS2 are too powerful, it would take a medium sized team of developers and a very large amount of logic elements. More realistic things to expect in the future with more capable hardware would be a Pentium, Nintendo DS (not 3DS though), N64, and more arcade hardware from 1995-1996.

N64 should be possible with existing DE10! we have a PSX and 32X core and both are more complex and powerful than the N64!

lordoftime79 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:20 am N64 should be possible with existing DE10! we have a PSX and 32X core and both are more complex and powerful than the N64!

No they are not. The N64 had very fast ram. There is pratically 0 chance of a N64 core on a DE10

lordoftime79 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:20 am N64 should be possible with existing DE10! we have a PSX and 32X core and both are more complex and powerful than the N64!

Nope, the comparison on the GPU level makes it clear. The PSX GPU contained around 1 million transistors while the N64 GPU contained about 2.6 million transistors.

The same applies to the CPU side of the system, the CPU in the N64 is much more complex then the CPU in the PSX.

Source:
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/p ... 00nm.c3707
http://www.hotchips.org/wp-content/uplo ... 9.10.2.pdf

lordoftime79 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:20 amN64 should be possible with existing DE10! we have a PSX and 32X core and both are more complex and powerful than the Shitty N64!

It's very well known the N64 is more powerful the PSX and way more advanced, the GPU on PSX was quite primitive, lacking things like antialiasing, texture filtering and perspective correction, the N64 GPU was more similar to an early PC 3d card than a console GPU of that era. And, the main CPU was clocked almost 3 times faster than the PSX. And the N64 RAM was way faster as well.

The two main shortcomings of the N64 were a too small texture cache ( only 4Kb! ) and a very bad video output, which made everything look soft, because it lacked native support for any kind of RGB/Component out, something even the SNES had, but overall it was a far more powerful system than the PSX, even today, high-end PC still have an hard time emulating a N64 *correctly*, with all the features in place and no video/sound issues.

Carts truly crippled the N64 from a consumer perspective, it missed a lot of 3rd party attention for that reason. That had to play in to the muddy textures too. Then Nintendo repeats basically the same mistake with Gamecube minidiscs.

Its extra funny trying to put the 32X over the N64 though. The most impressive showing has to be what, Star Wars arcade, with its flat unshaded polygons?

FoxbatStargazer wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:40 pm Its extra funny trying to put the 32X over the N64 though. The most impressive showing has to be what, Star Wars arcade, with its flat unshaded polygons?

Thinking of a side by side comparison with Rogue Squadron

lordoftime79 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:20 am N64 should be possible with existing DE10! we have a PSX and 32X core and both are more complex and powerful than the N64!

There's not one part of this sentence that is correct. Achievement.

lordoftime79 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:20 am N64 should be possible with existing DE10! we have a PSX and 32X core and both are more complex and powerful than the N64!

The N64 was a beast with all the latest technologies of the time. SGI graphics, Rambus RDRAM and a MIPS VRX CPU clocked at 94 Mhz. It was only hampered by a small amount of texture cache and cartridges.

Fuck off - n64 pails in comparison... psx blows it out of the water! I think you guys may have rose tinted glasses!

lordoftime79 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:17 pm Fuck off - n64 pails in comparison... psx blows it out of the water! I think you guys may have rose tinted glasses!

Please try to remain civil. There is no need to be rude.

Vic-20 Beats them both with it's 5.5K Ram !

SuperBabyHix wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:49 pm

lordoftime79 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:17 pm Fuck off - n64 pails in comparison... psx blows it out of the water! I think you guys may have rose tinted glasses!

Please try to remain civil. There is no need to be rude.

That is civil.

Just because the PSX may have had better games doesn't mean any of the above about fast ram, number of transistors is anything to do with rose-tinted gigs. The only thing really, technically, it pails in comparison with is the library size and quality of the PSX, that's all that "blows it out of the water", not the 32X which I think was a good couple of years before it from memory.

It might be a "shitty" N64 in your eyes, but there is little to zero chance of it squeezing into this particular FPGA (unfortunately). Would love to get a decent Saturn and Pentium core before the guys reach their limits but we have to be realistic. And the arcade version of Parodius (although the PSX/SNES one will do for now)

lordoftime79 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:17 pm Fuck off - n64 pails in comparison... psx blows it out of the water! I think you guys may have rose tinted glasses!

Maybe we just don´t share your enthusiasm.

lordoftime79 as other users have mentioned please keep this civil, your are entitled to your opinion on which consoles you prefer and which you do not, however if you have nothing constructive to add to this thread please just refrain from posting in this thread.

lordoftime79 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:00 pm

SuperBabyHix wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:49 pm

lordoftime79 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:17 pm Fuck off - n64 pails in comparison... psx blows it out of the water! I think you guys may have rose tinted glasses!

Please try to remain civil. There is no need to be rude.

That is civil.

I assume you're trying to be clever and sarcastic but please keep in mind that the failure mode of clever is “asshole.”

Anyway, I suspect someone could eventually make a N64 core, using every possible trick to squeeze the maximum potential out of the De-10 Nano, but I very much doubt it will run even as well as a software N64 emulator on a Pi 3. I'd rather see a Pentium core than a N64 core, but both are probably too far outside the scope of what the De-10 Nano is capable of.

I've never truly understood why people argue why one console is better than another, especially in an era when we can have them all in one box...

That said, from discussions I've seen on here before, the N64 is simply too big recreate given the limitations of the MiSTer's FPGA. Which is a shame because Ocarina of Time on the MiSTer would be mind-blowing!

Another problem with a potential N64 core is that it would need to be able to render at 480p/576p to be even worth using for many users (myself included).

jlancaster86 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:03 pm Another problem with a potential N64 core is that it would need to be able to render at 480p/576p to be even worth using for many users (myself included).

If it would be possible to recreate the N64 on the DE10 the output resolution wouldn't be a problem. The MiSTer can output the picture in up to 1440p ( in 60 Hz).

Chris23235 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:58 pm

jlancaster86 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:03 pm Another problem with a potential N64 core is that it would need to be able to render at 480p/576p to be even worth using for many users (myself included).

If it would be possible to recreate the N64 on the DE10 the output resolution wouldn't be a problem. The MiSTer can output the picture in up to 1440p ( in 60 Hz).

They are talking about internal 3D rendering resolution, not output video scaling. Nintendo 64 console renders video at 240p/480i, while all Nintendo's official emulators bump minimum resolution to 480i/480p, producing an image less impacted by N64's aggressive video filters. Not to mention that there's a whole generation of people today who grew up playing N64 games on emulators and have no idea how N64 video output actually looks.

FoxbatStargazer wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:40 pm Carts truly crippled the N64 from a consumer perspective, it missed a lot of 3rd party attention for that reason. That had to play in to the muddy textures too. Then Nintendo repeats basically the same mistake with Gamecube minidiscs.

Its extra funny trying to put the 32X over the N64 though. The most impressive showing has to be what, Star Wars arcade, with its flat unshaded polygons?

At least thanks to the cartridges, Nintendo didn't have to worry about the massive piracy that crippled the PSX (and Saturn) in some markets. Although some could argue that increased PSSX popularity, I still think it hurt games sales.

Possibly the Cube miniDVDs also prevented some of the piracy the Dreamcast and PS2 also suffered, and I don't know if it lost 3rd party attention because of that, aren't miniDVDs essentially the same cost to produce as the regular ones? GameCube games were around the same price as other systems, while the N64 always were way more expensive.

N64's actual video output is nowhere near as bad as the modern received wisdom has it, it's just one of these trendy exaggerations, like Megadrive's composite. At least not on CRTs, but MiSTer has now got enough filter options to be able to counter this on modern panels too (in that hypothetical scenario).

Besides, playing 10/10 games such as Zelda, Mario, or Goldeneye, slightly blurrier textures are really not that important, for me at least.

TLPD-AVW wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:22 pm

Chris23235 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:58 pm

jlancaster86 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:03 pm Another problem with a potential N64 core is that it would need to be able to render at 480p/576p to be even worth using for many users (myself included).

If it would be possible to recreate the N64 on the DE10 the output resolution wouldn't be a problem. The MiSTer can output the picture in up to 1440p ( in 60 Hz).

They are talking about internal 3D rendering resolution, not output video scaling. Nintendo 64 console renders video at 240p/480i, while all Nintendo's official emulators bump minimum resolution to 480i/480p, producing an image less impacted by N64's aggressive video filters. Not to mention that there's a whole generation of people today who grew up playing N64 games on emulators and have no idea how N64 video output actually looks.

You are right, I thought of games with the expansion pak but these were exceptions from the norm.

Very possible a N64 core wont be on the DE-10 NANO. But i do remember people saying the PSX or the 32X was not possible also.