MiSTer FPGA Forum

Hi Everyone,

We have a handheld prototype MiSTer and would like any feedback from the community on this idea -

Would you like to see this (refined version) available as a 100% compatible MiSTer portable platform.

Very quick spec points -

5" LCD low power IPS Screen (Snap-On magnetic bezel's for 16:9 and 4:3 gaming modes)
Included SRAM (64 or 128MB).
Controls may well change - adding analogue controls
Lithium battery packs - curently 2 x 5000mAh packs - giving around 6-7 Hours use.
2 x USB 2.0 external USB ports
Headphone
Built in stereo speakers (4 Ohms 1W + power amplifier).
Zero-lag gaming control inputs and MiSTer Menu buttons - reprogrammable.
Compatible with all standard MiSTer Cores.
Volume control wheel
External power input 5V.
Passive cooled back heat spreader / heatsink - copper
Design is comfortable and loosely styled on an evolved version of the Atari Lynx - maybe what a Lynx model 3 could have looked like?...



As always - all feedback, wishes and concerns greatly appreciated.

Thank you for any and all comments and ideas to make this closer to what the community wants in a handheld MiSTer.

Cheers,

Rich.

Some more images -
Genesis/Megadrive vore - showing the 4:3 snap-on screen bezel

4:3 and 16:9 bezel options
Lynx - Klax in Portrait mode

And for the history -

The Version 2 (rounded prototype) along with the revised V3 rectangular prototype V3

And finally - the inspiration for the design - the wonderful Atari Lynx

(Lynx 1 and 2 for scale)

That is really cool. I'm a big fan of the Lynx. That size is quite good for a MiSTer handheld. Battery life sounds great.
Shoulder buttons seem a bit small though.
EDIT: With the lack of a keyboard, some extra, reprogrammable buttons might help for computer cores. Or there would have to be a virtual keyboard and a touch screen.
EDIT2: And keep in mind vertical use, for vertical arcade cores.

I like V3 design. It's possible to add two more buttons on the front like the v2 / Saturn pad?

Already mentioned on twitter, but I'd love to see HDMI output.

The V2 design looks great, I think 6 facebuttons could be useful as fighters play better with 6 facebuttons compared to 4 facebuttons+2 shoulder buttons.

As others said a virtual keyboard would be nice, I think this could be possible on the main MiSTer level.

I love the idea of magnetic bezels.

For me analog controls wouldn't be a must as they are mainly useful for the PSX core. Mouse controls can be mapped to analog controls but from my experience this is adequate for very basic mouse inputs only. And if the device should be PSX compatible 2 additional shoulder buttons would be necessary.

Same goes for an HDMI output. I understand what the idea is behind it but then the device would also need an USB connection for a hub.

EDIT: Nevermind the last sentence, just saw that USB is already implemented.

For a price up to €450 I would buy such a device.

A larger screen would be ideal for those of us whose near vision has failed in our older age. LOL! The Steam Deck has a 7" display which seams like it would be a nice, big size. Having HDMI out would also be awesome so that the device could be plugged into a hotel TV when traveling.

This would be very cool, Id totally get one if the buttons feel good, Id like to be able to play all console cores, with PSX we have L3,L3,R2,R3 and Analog. Rumble would be really cool like some of the Anbernic RG devices have.
Im part of batch 2 of the consoled multisystem and Id love to see this become a reality.

This is a great idea! So this uses a different FPGA board than the DE10 Nano?

Cool stuff!

ergo / button thoughts:
I suspect it would feel more comfy to play if the right-side buttons were closer to the screen than the edge of the unit. (Perhaps with six buttons the space used by the right-most buttons would allow the four buttons closest to the screen to be relatively further inward by default, and many MiSTer-supported systems only need four or fewer face buttons.)

Regarding the six-button layout, I'd expect the thumb to lay across the buttons more naturally if the "line" of the buttons pointed toward the upper-right corner of the screen, rather than the bottom-right.

lu_source wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 5:50 pm This is a great idea! So this uses a different FPGA board than the DE10 Nano?

I doubt it but if does it will cost you 2 arms and 2 legs.

You will sell more of these than you can possibly hope to make.

Bob@RetroRGB did an interview with RMC and Chris (owner of Heber), and about halfway through they showed off the Handy prototype and made some comments. One thing I noticed was that the DE-10's had to be "modified" for this project, something like I guess how people cut down Wii motherboards to make them fit into portables. So there may be elements being completely chopped off.

I love the six button + shoulders on the 8bitdo M30 genesis-alike controller, but I worry those might get squished too close together on a handheld. On the other hand, going in the analog direction a la Playstation may not be fruitful if you can't fit L and R triggers in- at least with 6 button + L/R you can assign two face buttons to triggers or bumpers. Please don't go with a separated/playstation D-pad though, diagonals are just a disaster there. My favorite is the Genesis/Saturn style, but the S/NES style is at least tolerable. Some kind of paddle control might better represent MIster's supported systems, though I don't know how you can keep it comfortably handheld. Maybe some small trackpad a la Steam Deck, or else a touch screen, could act as a mouse, thereby emulating paddle, trackball, and lightgun?

There's no wireless or bluetooth, which could make updating a pain, though I guess you can lean on users adding small dongles filling the USB ports. Mister platform also has zero on-screen keyboard features, which would make this device challenging to configure without a keyboard or remote config, and probably put off using any computer cores in handheld. It would also be a big challenge modifying the Mister framework or cores to be more handheld-friendly given that Sergio probably wants Main to have nothing to do with this kind of closed-source AIO handheld board.

6-7 hours battery might be excessive in the playtime vs weight tradeoff. I'm guessing this has to be bulky/wide due to the DE-10 but you need to consider whether users feel the weight is "worth" what they are getting. The Switch is nearly Lynx-sized but it has a much larger screen, the Steam Deck is monstrous but it has a larger screen yet and piles of big controls. In other words you should consider either big screen and/or big or numerous controls if you go with a big case and battery, and lightening up on these elements if going smaller.

I have a pre-order in for the Analogue Pocket purely in the hope that they would eventually open up that system for community development or at least one of their plausibly denial "jailbreaks." With their utter lack of movement on this front I'd cancel and order this the moment it goes up, at least I know what to expect from the Mister platform!

It looks kinda cool but someone has to say it before it’s too late: why such a crap d pad?

Look at it this way: if you can’t do a decent speed run of Super Mario World on it, then it’s a bad product. It definitely wouldn’t be possible on this thing in its current state.

Another thing: if you're going to advertise low latency, that has to apply to the display side too. Namely, support for a range of refreshes for vsync_adjust=2. Need slightly above 60 to support SNES, and several more notches below to support arcades (57?) and all the way to just below 50 for PAL. If we have a display driver that converts framerates or a panel that flickers like mad at 50, these goals won't be achieved.

I am definitely interested in a portable MiSTer, but these designs are not great. I would suggest you study the ergonomics of various portables and controllers and especially pay attention to things like button sizes and the distance between the buttons and the distance from the buttons and d-pad to the edges of devices and distance to the shoulder/triggers. I would suggest the SNES controller and Xbox One/Series controllers and the PS5 controller as some of the best examples to look at. Scaled up some the GBA isn't a bad device to look at either, but it has issues with both d-pad/button size and the distance from the primary controls to the shoulder buttons (as someone with large hands it is very uncomfortable to play any games that use the shoulder buttons on it). I would rather sacrifice pocketability for ergonomics myself.

I say leave the analog sticks off of it. There isn't really enough room for them to be good on a portable unless you completely toss out pocketability as a design constraint. On all the Anbernic/Powkiddy devices I have used or seen either the thumbsticks or the d-pad are in terrible locations because they try to include both and I am personally more interested in something like this for 8/16 bit stuff that used digital controls.

The idea of the magnetic bezels to mask off the display is clever though. I would personally just let it letter box as needed but I understand that some people hate that. Obviously to keep the device price down you need to use a mass produced screen. I have been researching for a project that would need a 4-5 inch screen and it is pretty hard to find any that aren't either 16:9/16:10 or square.

To be honest, anyone wanting a retro handheld, you are better off with one of Ambernic's RG351 devices. Depending on your choice of form-factor, you could go for a Gameboy Colour form-factor with the RG351V - it's brilliant, perfect Gameboy Colour form-factor, and runs a super-fast Linux variant - 351Elec. I have a real Gameboy, colour, GBA, and side-by-side you couldn't tell the difference in terms of performance, lag, etc... the 351V is perfect for Gameboy, Colour, GBA, Lynx, Gamegear, PCEngine GT, etc.... Or get a 351M or P, and have a Gamegear form-factor.
Far, far cheaper than going the Mister route, and easy to get hold of one. Good battery, I get days out of my 351V.

If you can't tell between a 351 and a real gameboy, you probably couldn't tell between a Pi4 and a Mister. I don't know why some people think this kind of argument suddenly gains legs just because you are going portable. The Pocket being sold out and the de-10 in short supply is proof enough that there is an audience for FPGA solutions over ARM emulation, handheld or no.

-Needs all the buttons required to play PSX library
-Needs at least one analog stick for mouse emulation, paddles, psx games, and etc
-Needs a USBC port with HDMI on the bottom so it can be docked gracefully
-Screen should really be 1080p or higher, preferably 1440p.
-It's important that the screen be 16:9. People who don't know better will say most cores are 4:3, but in reality, almost none are 4:3. Borders and other blank aspects of the screen are trimmed off to make the Y axes draw without spaces, so some things like SMS are almost 3:2. GBA of course, one of the more popular consoles, is always 3:2. PSX also is often quite wide when the top and bottom blanks are trimmed.

FoxbatStargazer wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 4:07 pm If you can't tell between a 351 and a real gameboy, you probably couldn't tell between a Pi4 and a Mister. I don't know why some people think this kind of argument suddenly gains legs just because you are going portable. The Pocket being sold out and the de-10 in short supply is proof enough that there is an audience for FPGA solutions over ARM emulation, handheld or no.

I have the two, right next to me. IF you seriously think you could tell the difference, then you are either lying, or you simply don't understand what you are on about. On Gameboy, Super Mario Land, plays exactly the same on both systems. The same response, the same everything. You simply cannot tell the difference, and only those who snigger at emulation like to think there are differences. The 351 devices have sold millions, you don't do that with a poor product.

Come on people, this whole software emulation vs hardware emulation vs original hardware debate has gone over a million times, and there's no need to rehash it here. If you are happy with Pi or 351 based emulation, then great! That's awesome. You should use it, and have fun. This product isn't for you, and just because you wouldn't buy it doesn't mean that the whole project doesn't deserve to exist. All of the retro community is better off the more options we have. Let others be excited, and unless you have meaningful criticism, there's no need to come in and be a downer. Just enjoy what you enjoy, and let others enjoy what they enjoy. Nobody's hurt by these options existing.

Personally, I don't think I could justify the cost on this. Between FPGA on an Analogue Pocket and emulation on Steam Deck, I'm already way oversaturated with expensive mobile retro gaming options. And at least for me, the need for cycle accurate experiences kind of diminishes when I'm jostling on a bus or just casually killing time in a waiting room--it's not like I'll be timing speedruns in those scenarios.

But on the other hand, this is an awesome early proof of concept, and I really look forward to seeing future iterations. I love that this may be a new option for the community, and hope that it brings more people in.

I like the look of the round/older prototype a lot, but can understand the desire to simplify for the second revision. I'll second what others have said, that six face buttons would be ideal. But four+shoulders would at least be acceptable. I'm less concerned about analog sticks because they kind of suck hard on portable consoles for the most part, will add a fair bit of cost/complexity, and aren't needed for 95% of what you can do on this. And it's not like it'll have the internal storage to pack a full PS1 ROMset anyway. Finding the right middle ground between a good portable form factor and a layout that works for as much as possible is the best way to go. And on that front, it's probably just a SNES-equivalent layout. Something rotation friendly for WS and Lynx would be neat too.

I do like what others have said about a bottom-facing port for charging and/or video output. If you could get HDMI out through a USB-C port, that would make this a killer option for anyone getting into MiSTer. A one-stop option for top end TV gaming, and a great portable device to boot. A simple 3D printed dock with a cheap USB-C dongle would be a great option.

The one thing that handheld could really benefit from would be for a way to make the OSD Menu bigger since the screen is only 5".

I also believe this thing really needs to be a hybrid solution considering the price point I assume you'd have to sell this at.

I didn't mean any disrespect. I think this device is a good idea, with some refinements it can be better. And, I love the idea of the plastic bezel attachment to swap between 4:3, and 16:9.
But, don't write off the Ambernic device. I paid £90 for mine, and was blown away with how good it is for the money. It genuinely is as good as the original hardware, but with a much superior screen.


Those are both mine, side-by-side, and the only difference is the better screen on the Ambernic. Gameplay is exactly the same, same lag, same audio speed and pitch. But anyway, sorry to go off topic, just wanted to give some options to anyone not able to afford to go the Mister route.

I watched the retrorgb video and loved the idea of this.

There is definitely a place for this in the market as nothing right now can do exactly what this is capable of. The hardware vs emulation argument has no place here, if you don't want it then that's fine but there's obviously those who do so they don't need denigrating.

I like the rounded version but think it could do with possibly being a bit wider. The reason being the pad and buttons need to be higher in the body and further in from the edge. That's just my opinion but the 6 button pad looks too cramped against the edge. I definitely prefer the 6 button version though as 6 buttons is essential in my eyes, having LB and RB for fighters just isn't right.

Bluetooth for adding keyboards, or some way of getting to the menu without it will be needed.

Analogue sticks wouldn't go amiss but I understand they may be difficult to add.

I just hope if this goes ahead I have the money at the time

If you were to produce and sell this, I would definitely be interested in one.

Not sure about the name though. If I tell the Mrs that I'm paying some guy I met on a forum to give me a handy, she'd probably leave me.

MiSTer Mini MultiSystem then?

MMMS

Well as mentioned no-one wades into a Mister forum and tells people they should be using software emulation instead, except when it's a handheld for some inexplicable reason. However if your point of comparison for "original hardware" is gameboys with replacement screens, the experience might actually not be that far off.

SirSethery did some latency testing recently that suggests that the Funnyplaying v2 IPS GBA screen adds around two frames of latency, and may not even match the original refresh (i.e. it has to buffer the frames to exactly 60hz). This is quite different from how Mister runs in vsync_adjust=2 mode, where the scaler is just lines behind rather than entire frames. The analog pocket works similar as I understand. This means we are effectively reduced to buying FPGA handheld replacements just to enjoy the original timings on decent screens.

Again the linked article is interesting, because personally I did notice that extra frame of lag playing zelda GBA on the 3DS Virtual Console versus an unmodified AGS-001, before ever seeing any measurements. That's partly why I'm interested in a handheld FPGA system, even moreso now that the screen replacements may not be viable as far as latency goes.

FoxbatStargazer wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 6:51 pm Well as mentioned no-one wades into a Mister forum and tells people they should be using software emulation instead, except when it's a handheld for some inexplicable reason. However if your point of comparison for "original hardware" is gameboys with replacement screens, the experience might actually not be that far off.

Except, I NEVER told anyone to use software emulation. As for the rest of your tosh, it's just that, tosh.