MiSTer FPGA Forum

Hi guys!

New here to both the forum and FPGA, and would very much appreciate a help.

So, I was looking for old school gaming, but I'm not really an afficionate. What I really want is to have fun and enjoy some classic gaming in my living room - Mostly Sega, NES/SNES and PSX.

I understand there is difference between software and hardware emulation, that is why I'm looking to buy the Mister.

Now, a couple of questions.

1) Obviously if it has an HDMI output, I can play in any Full HD TV, is that right?
2) Should I get digital or analog versions?
3) How much SD card memory is enough for some casual gaming, and probably installing the new PSX core?
4) Should I really get the FPGA tech, considering the price, or maybe the software emulation is enough for me? I'm really sensitive to lag and delay, so there's that to consider.
5) What are the must have addons, and if you could explain their functions more clearly for dummies...hehe
6) Is psx core fully ready? I mean, can I play most of ps1 games already?
7) Can i use wireless controllers with minimal input lag?

If you could also recommend some reading for dummies on the Mister, I would also appreciate.

Well, thank you so much, and sorry for the load of questions!

In my opinion...since you are only looking to enjoy the old school games and not try to relive some memory of using a particular controller or the look/use of a "crt" tv/monitor, I would say the only thing you really need is:
1. DE10-nano
2. USB Hub (preferably the official USB Hub since they stack with the DE10 Nano and purchased from one of the reputable vendors)
3. 128M SDRAM card. (also suggest you go with reputable Mister vendors).
4. SD Card size depends on if you store your PSX games (and other CD based images) on your SD card or external hard drive. 32-64Gigs should be more then enough for most rom based cores and a couple of PSX games. Of course the higher the better.

Analog/Digital I/O boards you don't really need them unless you want access to the USER port for connecting external hardware such as original controllers and Light Gun(s) with "SNAC" adapters or the MT32-pi. You can always purchase one of the boards if your requirements change down the line.
The PSX core, for the most part is working very well and most games that I have played with worked just fine.
For wireless controllers and lag check MisterAddon's (a reputable US based vendor) Input Latency page/spreadsheet to see how well your controllers work, but in essence, yes you can use wireless controllers with no noticeable lag.

Now should you get into FPGA over software? Well that is more of a personal preference. Since you've mentioned you are not a fan of input lag, then I strongly recommend FPGA over software. You can probably get by with software emulation and may even get lucky with playing some games without lag but that usually involves alot of tweaking and from my experience, I have gotten frustrated trying to play some games and that lag just gets to me.

Anyway, hope this helps and sorry for the long winded (and probably worthless) answer.

I don't want to seem unaccommodating but you can answer all your questions and more by reading the MiSTer Wiki.

Happy to help all the same though.

1. Yes, you play over HDMI with a range of resolutions including 1080p.
2. Up to you? Depends on your use case and budget. You can also output to a CRT with direct video.
3. Entirely depends on how many games you want to store. You can also use a USB drive or network share to store your games.
4. Honestly, if you are just after a hit of nostalgia, no probably not? Software emulators are great these days and you can get great results on cheaper and weaker hardware.
5. SDRAM module, needed for most cores. Decent powered USB hub. Those are the essentials.
6. Yes. It is released publicly and compatibility/accuracy is excellent.
7. Yes. BUT. Input lag is additive; not only will you have to contend with the input lag inherent with wireless controllers (2.4GHz devices tend to be better) but you must factor in lag from modern televisions. Take a look here for an extensive list of tested controllers and here for a good resource on input lag.

mcrombaldi wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 4:47 pm 7) Can i use wireless controllers with minimal input lag?

Your best bet (and still somewhat easily available and also have good ergonomics) for very performant wireless performance is probably the M30 DE9 variant with a DaemonBite DE9 adapter.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07HB1XFQW

MiSTerAddons’ testing linked earlier bears this out. I use two of these myself, and they are great.

If you're really sensitive to input lag, then that's a pretty good reason to look into FPGA over software emulation. It's not that software emulation can't be tuned pretty well with a capable computer but going with something like MiSTer cuts out a lot of the factors that either contribute to lag or make it more inconsistent. With an FPGA, you're not really dealing with the "computery" parts that software emulation has to. It's a lot cleaner, straight forward, and responsive as a result. Even just over HDMI without diving into additional settings, I was impressed with how good everything felt the first time I tested it out. There's still other factors like your TV and controller selection but that's almost another deep dive in itself. But overall if you use a consistent and low lag controller with a responsive TV, then a MiSTer build isn't going to hold either of them back.

As for the must haves, the main add on I'd say is required is the SDRAM. The two common sizes you may see are 32MB and 128MB. Simply put, this is a memory module that allows many of the systems (or cores as they're called) to operate at the timing needed for FPGA. It's not an understatement to say that most cores need one. 32MB will work for many cores but I'd honestly say just go for the 128MB. Not many cores use more than 32MB but the Neo Geo does for the larger games and you won't be caught surprised if something else comes down in the future that can use 128MB. Any other extras are going to depend more on you. Some are happy with just a basic plastic case, some want a nice full metal or console like case. There's even that will make a build fit into an ITX computer case. The official MiSTer USB is also kinda optional. What it essentially is is a regular powered USB hub that's shaped to fit in the same space as the DE10-Nano board. I have that in my main build but for a cheaper arcade build, I just used a microUSB hub to plug in the couple of things I needed for it.

As for analog versus a digital IO board, everyone has their own opinion on it. If all you're going to do is use the HDMI port for everything, then you don't really *need* an IO board. Again for the cheaper build of mine, I just got a simple plate to mount a fan on for it to keep it cooled. Some prefer having a full size optical audio output and the option for a second SDRAM module so they go with the digital IO board. But outside of potentially the upcoming Saturn core, no core needs two separate SDRAM modules. It's too early to say on Saturn but PSX was able to get down to just one SDRAM module so it may or may not have complete functionality without needing two. I personally prefer the analog IO board. The VGA port on it is just a connector port and is reconfigurable. It can be VGA, it can be component, it can be SCART, or even composite and S-Video signal coming out of the port. I change displays frequently enough that I appreciate it being a built in port rather than having a converter cluttering up things. And for anyone that records or streams, having the two separate ports lets the HDMI be for the recording / streaming and the VGA used for the screen you use to keep it low lag. The only thing either IO board brings as an option is the User I/O port. This is needed for SNAC (hooking up original controllers but mostly for light guns) or for devices like the mt32-pi. Both require the User I/O port found on either IO board. But if you're going to just use HDMI and USB controllers, then an IO board is not a have to have (at least not immediately).

Regardless of the parts decisions you make, always purchase from a reputable seller. If you're going after any MiSTer parts like the official hub or IO boards, make sure to stick with the verified sellers like MiSTerAddOns, MiSTerFPGA,co,uk, UltimateMiSTer, or AntonioVillena. Cheap eBay or Amazon listings may seem appealing but they're often plagued with badly assembled parts and a pain to deal with for customer service. It's definitely better to stick with those that specialize with MiSTer as they'll test their products and are much better to work with *if* there's a problem.

My general advice is to kinda take your time and read and learn about it and all the parts for a bit. I think it's right for you since you mentioned minimal input lag and delay.

Your questions answered:
1) Yes.
2) It depends, read about the differences here --> https://mister-devel.github.io/MkDocs_M ... ddon-board
3) Personally if you are just going to put your favorite games on, a 256GB MicroSD is more than sufficient.
4) If you are sensitive to lag and delay and you want the smoothest video output, then you should go with MiSTer FPGA
5) Personally, you should get a digital/analog io board (depending on the decision from the link above), the usb hub add-on board, and the 128MB SDRAM addon board. But you can get by with a bare minimum if you are waiting on a usb hub or something else with just the de10-nano, a makerspot usb otg hub, and the SDRAM. The 128MB SDRAM is pretty important though, I'd consider it essential at this point. A lot of cores won't run without it.
6) The PSX core is probably at 90%-ish compatibility at this point from what we are seeing. It's rapidly closing the gap too, with updates every day pretty much. In some cases it's also passing some tests that no other software emulator currently passes (like GTE Timing tests), not even Sony's own emulator on the PS3.
7) With minimal lag? Sure. Take a look --> https://rpubs.com/misteraddons/inputlatency

The best full-featured run-down of what the MiSTer is about and how to use it is right here --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhT6YYRH1EI - My Life in Gaming did an amazing feature video on everything you could squeeze in about it in a full-length feature film style video.

https://mister-devel.github.io/MkDocs_MiSTer/ - This is the documentation site I've been working on continuously, it uses a combination of work that so many hard-working members of this community have contributed to the wiki in addition to some user-friendly tutorials and guides I've put together with video examples.

Wow guys, thank you so much for all the answers! I'm really sorry, I now that all you just told me is on the internet. But the way you all explained to me has helped me a lot, and also helped me decide for the FPGA!

Just one more question, I read the wikis but this didn't come clear. I intend on mostly using in HDMI tvs. But ocasionally, I'll use it in CRT televisions with RCA/component conections.

Can I connect to this televisions somehow via HDMI through the Digital IO?
Because if I did understand right, the only benefit from the Analog IO is the possibility to get a dual video output, or am I wrong?

Thank you. Hope I can contribute in the future to others in my position just as you did.

1)Obviously if it has an HDMI output, I can play in any Full HD TV, is that right?

Yes, but you may have lag issues on many TVs. The newest models are reducing lag to just a few milliseconds, but older sets can have several frames of lag. This isn't something Mister can fix; in its fastest output mode, its scaler adds about four scanlines of latency, but the monitor can absolutely dwarf that figure and make the game feel laggy, all on its own.

2) Should I get digital or analog versions?

You might not need either. The HDMI cable carries both sound and video. The digital board mostly gives you an optical out on a separate path, so that your sound won't get interrupted if your monitor loses sync. (pretty common with my monitor here, for instance; almost all cores cause several flickers and sound interruptions on startup, until the monitor settles.)

The major reason to add an analog board, at this point, is to support two outputs at once. This is good for streamers, for example. You have both the CRT and the HDMI output, so you can play on one and stream with the other. If you just need to drive a CRT, since the digital board can now do that, that's probably the way to go.

3) How much SD card memory is enough for some casual gaming, and probably installing the new PSX core?

The Mister setup with all the arcade ROMs will fit comfortably on an 8GB card. From there, it's just how much stuff you want to add. If you're cherry-picking individual games and loading them, you might be fine with just the 8G card. If you want whole libraries, you could want a lot more space.

Examples:

A little less than 700 games for the SNES is a half a gig. Roughly 3,000 games for the Genesis is 2.3G. 2000ish games for the GBA is 36G. 2000ish PS1 games is 513G.

4) Should I really get the FPGA tech, considering the price, or maybe the software emulation is enough for me? I'm really sensitive to lag and delay, so there's that to consider.

If you're mostly focused on consoles and want low latency, the Mister is a good solution, and covers a *lot* of consoles. But remember your monitor is also very important.

5) What are the must have addons, and if you could explain their functions more clearly for dummies...hehe

You absolutely need the DE-10. It has only one USB input, and that input is fragile, so you need at least an OTG hub and a good way to be sure you're not putting any strain on the connector. You can get really basic OTG hubs for about $8. Those two things will let you play Genesis games and many of the oldest arcade games.

If you add a RAM stick (just buy 128MB, you don't save enough to make smaller boards worth it), then you can play anything on the Mister. If your TV is happy with the Mister's output, you can stop right there... probably a little over $300. I played like this for months. Everything works well.

If you get into the more advanced cores, you'll want a 22mm heatsink for the FPGA, and some method of moving air over the board. You get small fans with both flavors of I/O board, which will solve the air problem.

Adding a digital board will let you deliver sound to a receiver separately from the video, so it will stay steady no matter what the TV is doing.

Adding an analog board will also let you drive a CRT, and will let the Mister put out two signals at once, but you lose optical sound output.

Adding a USB hub on the bottom will protect the Mister's fragile port. It screws in, and then you plug in a U-shaped connector to bridge the USB down to the lower board, removing all stress from the most breakable part of the DE-10.

There are more specialized peripherals as well. You may want to look into SNAC adapters, which require one of the I/O boards; they let you plug the original controllers into the board, and have them read at original speed. It's like plugging them directly into the console. You need a different SNAC adapter for each core, and you have to swap them as you change systems.

6) Is psx core fully ready? I mean, can I play most of ps1 games already?

I've only fiddled with it a little, but it seemed to be doing a good job with Final Fantasy 8. I noted that the sound was a little choppy on startup, but it seemed okay in game.

7) Can i use wireless controllers with minimal input lag?

Bridging from Linux to Mister takes like one millisecond, so almost all lag is imposed by the controllers and their adapters. Some are fantastic, some are terrible. Wired controllers are usually, but not always faster. If you want the absolute best latency, SNAC and original controllers is fastest.

I wouldn't bother with SNAC unless you're going to be driving a CRT directly; few flat panel TVs are fast enough to make SNAC worthwhile, at least in terms of latency. If you just want original controllers, dammit, then SNAC might be worth doing.

I just realized that I was confused about something: for the new direct analog drive mode, do you have to have a digital I/O board, or can you do that straight from the bare DE-10? For some reason I thought the digital board was required, but I don't see anywhere to plug that kind of cable in, so I wonder if I'm tragically wrong? Or do you have to have the digital board so you have a sound output?

I've read some mixed thoughts on the Aliexpress sellers. Any opinion on them?


Thanks!

If you're in the US, Legacy Pixels is inexpensive, and seems to be doing a good job.

mcrombaldi wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 2:19 am I've read some mixed thoughts on the Aliexpress sellers. Any opinion on them?

Thanks!

That company burned me. Go with Retro Castle instead as they are the only reputed seller on that marketplace as far I've heard.

Retro Castle is just about the only reliable Ali Seller. Although it will tie you into his board designs

Malor wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 3:10 pm I just realized that I was confused about something: for the new direct analog drive mode, do you have to have a digital I/O board, or can you do that straight from the bare DE-10? For some reason I thought the digital board was required, but I don't see anywhere to plug that kind of cable in, so I wonder if I'm tragically wrong? Or do you have to have the digital board so you have a sound output?

Direct video only requires a very low-cost HDMI-to-VGA converter and many come with analog audio out too. No need for either IO board.

Unfortunately I don't live in the US right now, and I'm looking into importing the parts.

Can anyone confirm that DE10-nano is available at the official Terasic website? Because I believe it is available again, and maybe I'll just purchase the original DE10 from their website and then the addons from Misteraddons.

And since aliexpress seems to be unofficial, I don't want that.

I won't paste the link because my other post has been deleted, sorry.

Thanks!

DE10-Nano is out of stock everywhere, with a long lead time. You can pre-order now via Terasic but I've heard you may be better off contacting them directly to ship a unit to you faster.

Yes. If you are in the US shoot them an email and they may be able to hook one up faster with cheaper shipping within the States, I think one of their reps and distribution partners are in Utah.

Thanks guys! I ended up talking to Ricardo from ultimatemister! He's awesome!

Also, I've read a lot of material, but this didn't become clear to me. When I use the update function, does it download games automatically for me? Or do I have to add them manually? As I said, mostly mega drive, NES, SNES and PSX cores.

If so, from where do you guys download them? Or is there a collection that can be downloaded and inserted at the SD cards?

Thanks!

The regular update script doesn't download either ROMs or system files.

If you install the update_all.sh script, which deliberately doesn't come with the Mister system, it will get cores and ROMs for arcade games, and any system BIOS files you need for the various computers and consoles. All the arcade games will be fully playable, because they have everything they need.

From there, for cores with multiple games, it's up to you to source tape, disk, and cartridge images. All the cores are fully ready to accept programs, but you have to source them. Many of the computer cores will also accept hard drive images, when those computers supported hard drives.

Update_all.sh is here:

https://github.com/theypsilon/Update_All_MiSTer

As far as where to get game files, they're all over the Internet. Archive.org is a particularly rich source, but offers tons of low quality collections alongside very good ones. TOSEC images, for instance, usually have excellent individual files, but their naming and distribution system is goddamn Byzantine. (TOSEC, overall, is one of the best sources, but it can be tough to figure out what you should actually download. )

Malor wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 4:06 pm The regular update script doesn't download either ROMs or system files.

If you install the update_all.sh script, which deliberately doesn't come with the Mister system, it will get cores and ROMs for arcade games, and any system BIOS files you need for the various computers and consoles. All the arcade games will be fully playable, because they have everything they need.

From there, for cores with multiple games, it's up to you to source tape, disk, and cartridge images. All the cores are fully ready to accept programs, but you have to source them. Many of the computer cores will also accept hard drive images, when those computers supported hard drives.

Update_all.sh is here:

https://github.com/theypsilon/Update_All_MiSTer

As far as where to get game files, they're all over the Internet. Archive.org is a particularly rich source, but offers tons of low quality collections alongside very good ones. TOSEC images, for instance, usually have excellent individual files, but their naming and distribution system is goddamn Byzantine. (TOSEC, overall, is one of the best sources, but it can be tough to figure out what you should actually download. )

Thank you!

I'll try to search for the games. So basically SNES and PSX games need to be individually downloaded and loaded to the SD card, right? Also, are all PS1 games supported by the PSX core?

The update_all.sh script will download your BIOS and Arcade ROMs, all the other systems you'll have to RIP/source yourself.

All PS1 games should be supported, if you find issues you should report them to help with core development but remember to check you have a good image first. Also, consider using CHD for PS1 games. They are compressed and take up significantly less space than BIN/CUE files.