MiSTer FPGA Forum

Hey there, Some people are talking about this https://github.com/zxtheproto/vampire4-MiSTer on the Vampire discord channel saying it will never work! is this legit and will it work?

The Vampire V4 is running on a Cyclone V FPGA, the same that's in the Mister, and apparently either clocked slower or with fewer LE's. It sounds like the DE-10 is a straight superset of whatever they're already using. Someone with sufficient knowledge could almost certainly port it over, or recreate it, if they're willing to put in a metric assload of work.

Consider that we already have Minimig, and getting from there to a Vampire would basically only need a better CPU. Seems like modifying the existing core would probably be easier, rather than a ground-up reimplementation, but I have zero qualifications to make that assessment.

wow, port like this would be amazing

The Vampire is closed source if I recall correct.

Vampire 4 core is not open source nor released in any form other than bitstream. I don't think one can put a reverse engineered bistream on github.

It would have to be a workalike reimplementation. That's a metric crapton of work, not to mention... drama.. let's leave it at that.

Looks like someone has taken the framework for a new MiSTer core a dumped it on github, can't really find much content there browsing the files.

Maybe someone wanting to create some news or someone who thinks they'll do it themselves... either way, nothing much there yet?

Hoax indeed. The real thing is not even properly finished yet, and no way they are going to allow ports to other platforms. If that would be possible anyway.

From out here in the open source world, it would probably be a lot easier to just figure out how to speed up the CPU in the Minimig core. It already runs very well, but it would be nice to have more grunt for a few games. That CPU work could probably then be used for the Mac and ST cores as well.

That sounds like a brutal project to me, though. The 060 has 2.5 million transistors. Trying to jam that into 110K logical elements is obviously possible, as the Apollo people have demonstrated, but it must be tough.

Wont happen.. Apollo core is private/closed source .. they have no interest in porting it to any other platform. This is an obvious fakery .. even Gunnar himself called it an "april fools" by someone so what does that tell you.. its garbage..

throAU wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 12:52 pm Looks like someone has taken the framework for a new MiSTer core a dumped it on github, can't really find much content there browsing the files.

Maybe someone wanting to create some news or someone who thinks they'll do it themselves... either way, nothing much there yet?

Yup, not sure how this was found, but I do not think it was meant to be public. But someone just made this and the git account has not released anything before making this, which is pretty much just a fork of a MiSTer Core template and the only changes made to it seems to be naming changes.

So we should probably not expect to see anything come from this.

throAU wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 12:52 pm Yup, not sure how this was found, but I do not think it was meant to be public. But someone just made this and the git account has not released anything before making this, which is pretty much just a fork of a MiSTer Core template and the only changes made to it seems to be naming changes.

So we should probably not expect to see anything come from this.

Yes, it's just a toolkit empty placeholder with some strings edited. We will never see anything here.

Malor wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:19 am Consider that we already have Minimig, and getting from there to a Vampire would basically only need a better CPU. Seems like modifying the existing core would probably be easier, rather than a ground-up reimplementation, but I have zero qualifications to make that assessment.

It'd take a lot more than a faster CPU, the Vampire has a whole new expanded chipset with significantly greater capabilities than AGA. I decided to go the MiSTer route because it is open source, but the Vampire was very tempting, as I would like to see the Amiga make it into the 21st century in such a form.

Open source Vampire + open source AmigaOS (whether the original code or AROS if fully compatible) = dream come true. I'm happy enough with NeXTStep having taken the form of macOS but a modern Amiga free of licenses... That would be sweet.

thisisamigaspeaking wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:39 pm It'd take a lot more than a faster CPU, the Vampire has a whole new expanded chipset with significantly greater capabilities than AGA. I decided to go the MiSTer route because it is open source, but the Vampire was very tempting, as I would like to see the Amiga make it into the 21st century in such a form.

Open source Vampire + open source AmigaOS (whether the original code or AROS if fully compatible) = dream come true. I'm happy enough with NeXTStep having taken the form of macOS but a modern Amiga free of licenses... That would be sweet.

Not being an asshole at all - but why? What did the Amiga bring to the table that offers value beyond nostalgia in the 21st century? It was an operating system devoid of even basic memory protection...by definition a 'modern' Amiga is still a product of the early 90s and shows its age readily.

Without active development, past the 5 minute 'gee whiz' factor, what is on offer?

I'm super-nostalgic for BeOS, and Haiku is a tour de force of reverse engineering, but it _has_ memory protection and much more modern design roots...still, I wouldn't consider it suitable for anything remotely like a day-to-day driver for any work flow. Amiga (and AROS) is far, far behind that.

The Amiga doesn't offer anything anymore that's worth much, but at the time it was in real use, it was far ahead of anything else. It was vaguely similar to Windows 98, but shipped 13 years sooner. Windows 98, however, was better, and early NT was thoroughly better.

Compared with current operating systems, it offers nothing. The last real use for Amigas died when SD video did. That's part of why I don't think extending the graphics is particularly useful, because it's very unlikely that anything great will be written to take advantage. Anyone putting that much effort into a game or an application would probably do it for Windows, so that more people could use it.

A faster CPU on Minimig would be fantastic, but there's not much reason for further expansion after that.

rhester72 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:56 pm

thisisamigaspeaking wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:39 pm It'd take a lot more than a faster CPU, the Vampire has a whole new expanded chipset with significantly greater capabilities than AGA. I decided to go the MiSTer route because it is open source, but the Vampire was very tempting, as I would like to see the Amiga make it into the 21st century in such a form.

Open source Vampire + open source AmigaOS (whether the original code or AROS if fully compatible) = dream come true. I'm happy enough with NeXTStep having taken the form of macOS but a modern Amiga free of licenses... That would be sweet.

Not being an asshole at all - but why? What did the Amiga bring to the table that offers value beyond nostalgia in the 21st century? It was an operating system devoid of even basic memory protection...by definition a 'modern' Amiga is still a product of the early 90s and shows its age readily.

Without active development, past the 5 minute 'gee whiz' factor, what is on offer?

I'm super-nostalgic for BeOS, and Haiku is a tour de force of reverse engineering, but it _has_ memory protection and much more modern design roots...still, I wouldn't consider it suitable for anything remotely like a day-to-day driver for any work flow. Amiga (and AROS) is far, far behind that.

Linux and macOS are based on Unix which dates to 1969, and macOS more directly on NeXTSTEP from the 80s. There were Unixes that ran without memory protection along the way to today; an OS can evolve. The Amiga dating to the 80s doesn't say much on its own. Now of course Unix is a much better foundation than AmigaOS. The point is not to make a daily driver machine, what's the point in that, one would just start with ... GNU/Linux. We already have that.

It's purely a fun idea. Obviously some people think it is worth commercial development in the form of the Vampire, and some people are willing to pay the exorbitant prices for them. If it ever ended up open source (maybe they will give up some day and give it to the FOSS community) it could be really fun to play with. I would code for it. No more or less point than any of this other stuff we are doing IMO. Why play retro games at all when we have such advanced 3D games with real time ray tracing and realistic environments etc.?

thisisamigaspeaking wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:59 pm It's purely a fun idea. Obviously some people think it is worth commercial development in the form of the Vampire, and some people are willing to pay the exorbitant prices for them. If it ever ended up open source (maybe they will give up some day and give it to the FOSS community) it could be really fun to play with. I would code for it. No more or less point than any of this other stuff we are doing IMO. Why play retro games at all when we have such advanced 3D games with real time ray tracing and realistic environments etc.?

Eh - mostly because the legacy games are tangible - they existed (in quantity), were played (in quantity), and can still be enjoyed (in quantity). The other is a much more nebulous theory/concept that borders on alternate-timeline-reality and has so little backing that it has little hope of progressing beyond a mental playground for a dozen or so people and even less of becoming noteworthy enough for anyone outside that group to take notice and start progressing it forward (in terms of software development, the heart of any platform). I'm not very convinced the two are even slightly comparable.

The Next is probably the most mainstream example of 'taking things to the next level'...and interest in it died out pretty quickly except for a handful of super-diehards. It was an example of *success*. Then you've got the MEGA65, which ultimately reached production status and...went and is going absolutely nowhere except as a retro FPGA platform (a la MiSTer Junior).

I've struggled mightily to understand who the Vampire is marketed to and why (and what they are doing with it), but given the price tag and rarity, I imagine it is a very, VERY small club indeed.

If you have interest at that level, well - there's literally a FPGA in front of you. =) I just wouldn't necessarily expect others to contribute. It's a niche in a niche in a niche...and fantasy programming environments already abound.

rhester72 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:13 pm

thisisamigaspeaking wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:59 pm It's purely a fun idea. Obviously some people think it is worth commercial development in the form of the Vampire, and some people are willing to pay the exorbitant prices for them. If it ever ended up open source (maybe they will give up some day and give it to the FOSS community) it could be really fun to play with. I would code for it. No more or less point than any of this other stuff we are doing IMO. Why play retro games at all when we have such advanced 3D games with real time ray tracing and realistic environments etc.?

The Next is probably the most mainstream example of 'taking things to the next level'...and interest in it died out pretty quickly except for a handful of super-diehards.

Next didn't die out though, Jobs took it to the next level yet again in the 2000s and there are millions of machines descended from it still being sold today. Not saying there is any chance or reason that would happen with an "AAA" Amiga or whatever, but it has happened in general.

thisisamigaspeaking wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:31 pm

rhester72 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:13 pm The Next is probably the most mainstream example of 'taking things to the next level'...and interest in it died out pretty quickly except for a handful of super-diehards.

Next didn't die out though, Jobs took it to the next level yet again in the 2000s and there are millions of machines descended from it still being sold today. Not saying there is any chance or reason that would happen with an "AAA" Amiga or whatever, but it has happened in general.

Very sorry - meant the Spectrum Next (as the penultimate example of extending dead computer tech in a semi-fantasy what-if-this-was-available-back-in-the-day superconstruction).

rhester72 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:38 pm

thisisamigaspeaking wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:31 pm

rhester72 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:13 pm The Next is probably the most mainstream example of 'taking things to the next level'...and interest in it died out pretty quickly except for a handful of super-diehards.

Next didn't die out though, Jobs took it to the next level yet again in the 2000s and there are millions of machines descended from it still being sold today. Not saying there is any chance or reason that would happen with an "AAA" Amiga or whatever, but it has happened in general.

Very sorry - meant the Spectrum Next (as the penultimate example of extending dead computer tech in a semi-fantasy what-if-this-was-available-back-in-the-day superconstruction).

Thanks I just realized that there was an FPGA computer named Next after googling and was about to edit my post.

I'm just saying... if we ever did for some reason get the Vampire VHDL for free, I'd write software for it. I agree it's not worth the effort to re-implement it nor would I have any idea how to do that myself.

thisisamigaspeaking wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:45 pm

I'm just saying... if we ever did for some reason get the Vampire VHDL for free,

Never ever going to happen, seeing the history of the Amiga 'community'. I can't think of any project in the last 30 years that was not tainted by quarrels or legalese over intellectual rights and money. The most recent courtcase over Amiga related IP was just one year ago iirc.

Re:open source SAGA core

Gunnar said he would open source the SAGA core in 2017 as Kolla's link indicates but it's tightly integrated with the 68080. The 68080's second CPU thread supplies the blitter emulation using the AMMX vector unit to supply much more speed than the MiniMig core could supply.

Well, Gunnar has always denied that blitter is done in “software”. But that just illustrates the main problem with apollo core(s) - unlike “real” Amiga architecture which always was quite open and information available, apollo core is rather the exact opposite.

Btw, there never is any “Vampire V4” - Vampire is Majsta’s trademark, only his cards are the Vampire cards. The V4 cards were not made by him. I wish people could start getting this right soon, with the current drama where Majsta has been thrown out of “the team” (like so many before him), we quickly end up with the creator and owner of the Vampire brand being stamped as a Vampire “hater”, by so called Vampire “lovers”…

It was only the v2 core that used the second thread. Now the v4 cores have a real blitter. Sorry about the mixup.

Another thing that Gunnar offered in 2017 (I think) was that any manufacturer could license the AC68080 core for free, but it would be limited to slow 68060 speeds until user/vendor paid for a “proper” license. Stangely, apparently noone was interested in this offer.

kolla wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:41 am Btw, there never is any “Vampire V4” - Vampire is Majsta’s trademark, only his cards are the Vampire cards. The V4 cards were not made by him. I wish people could start getting this right soon, with the current drama where Majsta has been thrown out of “the team” (like so many before him), we quickly end up with the creator and owner of the Vampire brand being stamped as a Vampire “hater”, by so called Vampire “lovers”…

I don't understand, you're saying Gunnar is illegally using the Vampire trademark? That is something for the trademark owner to sort out, I don't think customers are responsible for doing some sort of legal inquiry into the status of consumer products or their trademarks. What would we call the V4+ Standalone if not Vampire V4+ Standalone?

Life's three certainities: death, taxes, and Amiga drama (especially regarding the V).

Gunnar is not the one calling the V4 a Vampire, the word "vampire" was rarely, if ever, used in any official advertising.

http://www.apollo-computer.com/v4standalone.php

V is not for “Vampire”, it is more “version”.

kolla wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 7:20 pm Gunnar is not the one calling the V4 a Vampire, the word "vampire" was rarely, if ever, used in any official advertising.

http://www.apollo-computer.com/v4standalone.php

V is not for “Vampire”, it is more “version”.

http://www.apollo-core.com/v4.html

"The incredible Vampire standalone. I was honestly blown away by that product."
- David John Pleasance,
former Commodore UK Managing Director

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