MiSTer FPGA Forum

Hi all. I am currently connecting my mister to a Sony CRT. I have been looking at PVMs online and am thinking about buying one in the future funds allowing. I have two questions really and would appreciate any advice.

Firstly, I understand that I can connect the mister to a PVM using the VGA port on the I/o board with a VGA to BNC cable like the cable below:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B009GUO9PM

I believe this cable is 75 ohm although I’m not certain if that matters or even quite what it means! So, is the cable above suitable?

Lastly, does anybody who owns both a CRT and a PVM have any thoughts about the comparison? Would I be better saving my money and not bothering with a PVM? I am quite happy with my CRT but an upgrade is always nice!

Thanks in anticipation of any advice.

1) This cable should be fine

2) That depends largerly on what model is your current Sony and how much "a PVM" (a broad spectrum) costs in your area. So, if you have one of the newer Trinitrons (circa post 2000) or older one in a really good shape, then imo spending a lot on a PVM is pointless. And these days you'd need to be very lucky not to spend a lot (they were always expensive, but nowadays it's borderline ridiculous).

I own 2 PVMS (600 TVL 21" and 800 TVL 14") and also numerous high quality consumer sets, and imo the IQ difference between them is minuscule and subject to taste (I think I honestly prefer some of my TVs, because of better balance of all aspects involved). I've spent countless hours poring over that, because I only got these PVMs to work on an archival project (and a chance to buy them for "reasonable" prices - which means still expensive but below market average).

Also, bear in mind that there is no guarantee that "a PVM" will provide superior quality just because it's a PVM - in 2023 these units can also have technical flaws, not all of which are easily corrected. So if you decide on buying, make sure that either you can first see it in person, or the seller is 100% trustworthy, knows what they're talking about and can provide quality pics, plus agree to ship packed to an industrial standard and on a Euro palette (or whatever the equivalent is in your area). Otherwise safe delivery is quite a gamble.

That’s very helpful. Thank you for taking the time to respond in detail. The CRT I currently have is from the early 2000s and it has RGB through Scart. It is the KV21FV1U combined VCR model and I don’t like the fact it has a VCR much but the picture through RGB seems good.

From what you say perhaps I would not get a much better experience with a PVM given that the CRT I currently have is not so old and in great shape. I have only seen PVMs on YouTube not in real life so it is hard to tell; the opinion of those who have is very valuable.

A 20 inch PVM in the U.K. is about £500 give or take and there does seem to be a general feeling that perhaps they are a little overrated and definitely over priced.

Any other opinions?

They are definitely overpriced, especially the smaller, lower end PVMs - I regularly see them on eBay for £300-£400+, and at those prices they aren't worth that, although some still sell at those prices.
£500 for a 20" model would be a good buy, in the current climate, and going by current prices. There are some well over a £1000, and that is silly money from greedy sellers, and rarely sale.
I run a CRT monitor from the 80s, the Philips 8833 Mark II, VGA to Scart for horizontal games only, and a Sony 14" 1442 QM PVM - this is connected via HDMI to VGA adapter, then VGA to BNC, and it's turned on it's side for vertical games only. The Sony PVM is miles better than the Philips 8833 MkII, the picture is clearer, sharper, and good colour - if a little oversaturated, possibly because it's using direct video. But, the Philips is my original CRT Monitor from the late 80s, for my Amiga 500, and it gives me an image that is more familiar with my 80s gaming - the PVM image is gorgeous, but a little too perfect for me.
For 20" PVMs, my personal wants include the Sony 20M2MDE, the Ikegami HTM-1990R, Sony 2053MD, and the stunning Sony HR Multiformat. All of them have been, or even currently are on eBay, but the prices are mental, and the distance from me is many hundreds of miles, sadly.

I don't have a PVM so I can't speak to it specifically, but I have a few great CRT TV's and a great CRT VGA monitor. Both have their exclusive purpose. The TV's are for cores that are native to TV's. The VGA monitor is for cores that have higher resolution requirements. Both have a completely different and unique look. Monitors are not as bright and bloomy as TV's and are meant to be viewed at close range. When I am viewing something, I would much prefer to view it the way it was natively back in the day. Monitors are for PC's, Mac's, etc. (AO486, etc.) and TV's are for 15KHz content. PVM's have more of that monitor look I think. There are also 15KHz monitors for Commodore and Apple computers. My Apple monitor looks more like a really good TV and my friend's Commodore monitor looks more like a PC monitor. Some PVM's can go up to 480p and can be used for TV and computer purposes. If you only have one CRT, then PVM's are a good option at the expense of not looking as much like a TV or a VGA monitor. It is in between from what I can tell, sort of like my Apple monitor. I am more of a purist so have no desire for a PVM. My advice is if you like your TV, just use it, and if you want a higher resolution CRT monitor, get a VGA monitor. Mine is a 17 inch Dell capable of 1600x1200 which is really great. Lower resolution is fine too in most cases.

PVM's are not really worth the extreme cost if you just wanna play games. My advice is to just get a used Trinitron instead, the quality is comparable.

Thank you all. So I gather that a PVM will be clearer and sharper than a CRT (a generalisation but roughly all else being equal) and that this may be an unfamiliar experience for those of us who grew up playing on the ZX Spectrum etc on a CRT.

It seems as though I should be thinking more towards sticking with what I have.

You are right that PVM prices on eBay are laughable and that they don’t seem to sell.

If nobody else chips in with a recommendation to get a PVM over a CRT I think I’ll move on and be grateful for the comments already in.

I don't have any advice for your specific scenario, but I love my BVM for single player gaming sessions. It's a 900TVL and I've never seen another CRT like it. I got it many many years ago before the BVM/PVM hype was as crazy as its gotten today.

Would I pay $1,000 for it today? Probably not. If money was no object? Sure!

It is so difficult! The attraction of a PVM is always there in the background….

I’d love to hear any more thoughts from members who own both a CRT and a PVM. Would you pay (say) £500 for a 20 inch PVM now if you only owned your CRT?

Let’s hear the verdict!

If you are in Europe, PVMs are really not that much of an upgrade over a regular Sonys, since they all have RGB via SCART. I understand that they are sought after in the US, since americans never got RGB hookups on their TV sets, except for the PVMs. Other than RGB, they do have some nice service menus etc, but most consumer sets have that as well, at least the later ones.

PVMs will always be king. I own 2 and the picture on them is amazing. However, I still think the current price for PVMs is way too much. I personally wouldn't pay more then $300 for one.

On the flip side I think a higher end consumer CRT with component input can be just as good as a PVM. component video is about 95-98% of RGB. Stick to brands like Sony, JVC, Panasonic, Mitsubishi all look great. And I prefer the curved glass over the flat screen glass. Depending on where you live you can still find these for free.

Also, S-video looks great on smaller CRT sets. S-video is about 90-95% of RGB.

There's a lot of great options for CRTs.

I use a Commodore 1084 15Khz monitor with RGB SCART. It has a slot mask, like most vintage arcade machines seem to have. And a big advantage of it is that you can easily shift and resize the image, using knobs on the outside of the monitor. This is especially handy with arcade cores and the Amiga core.

So there seems to be a feeling that the picture on a PVM is as good as it gets (notwithstanding small differences across models I expect) but that the RGB via Scart, particularly on later Sony trinitrons common in the EU, is pretty close. And the edge the PVM has is not worth paying a lot for. For example, the £500+ some 20 inch PVMs go for simply doesn’t make good sense and people are asking a lot more than that on eBay - albeit those sellers are not getting anywhere.

Any more advocates for paying a high price for a PVM over a CRT? Or is the statement above somewhat accurate at least!!

One thing I've heard about PVM monitors is that they have a very strong scanline effect.

LamerDeluxe wrote: ↑Sun May 07, 2023 7:46 am

I use a Commodore 1084 15Khz monitor with RGB SCART. It has a slot mask, like most vintage arcade machines seem to have. And a big advantage of it is that you can easily shift and resize the image, using knobs on the outside of the monitor. This is especially handy with arcade cores and the Amiga core.

Well that sure explains a lot!

I own a 21" PVM and a number of consumer CRTs. My favourites are 4:3 flat screen Trinitrons.

I use the PVM just for vertical games, since it's easy to tate.

IandMR wrote: ↑Sun May 07, 2023 8:51 am

Any more advocates for paying a high price for a PVM over a CRT? Or is the statement above somewhat accurate at least!!

PVM == CRT.

But to answer your question more directly, and as others have said in this thread too: a consumer trinitron tv is just as good as one of them sony pvm's. Also, as others have said, the older commodore 1084/ philips 8833 style monitors are excellent and give a more natural look.
It all depends on what kind of image you prefer, and what size of display you want. That said, I never ever paid more than 100 for a monitor, and I think any price above that is robbery. (unless you find a sony 20" bvm in pristine state of course)

One thing to add, in favour of PVMS. They're built like tanks, built to last, and take abuse. Most were used in film, and TV production, so had to be carried around everywhere the production company went. Hospitals also had them, but they were, more than often, better looked after, not moved around so much. I have a 2x Sony 9" HR Trinitrons, and they're built to last, and weigh as much as one of my 20" CRT TVs.
If you see a 20" Sony PVM, or even BVM, for £500 or less, just get it if you can. Currently on eBay, there are a few 20" PVMs, and the asking prices are an insane £2,000, or around that figure, AND there are at least 14 people watching them. Madness. I really hope nobody pays that, because it only encourages other sellers to want the same money.

FoxbatStargazer wrote: ↑Sun May 07, 2023 11:45 am

LamerDeluxe wrote: ↑Sun May 07, 2023 7:46 am

I use a Commodore 1084 15Khz monitor with RGB SCART. It has a slot mask, like most vintage arcade machines seem to have. And a big advantage of it is that you can easily shift and resize the image, using knobs on the outside of the monitor. This is especially handy with arcade cores and the Amiga core.

Well that sure explains a lot!

Haha, yes it does. Nobody knows how someone's 1084 is currently adjusted, so offsets and aspect ratios of Amiga games are just whatever

Where I worked before (at a large broadcast TV company), they had a whole room full of unused PVMs, of all sizes, just wasting away. I asked if I could buy one, but that wasn't possible, it was really frustrating.

Also, PVMs can run both PAL and NTSC signals. Pretty handy if you want to run Commodore 64 and Commodore Amiga stuff.

shertz wrote: ↑Sun May 07, 2023 7:22 pm

Also, PVMs can run both PAL and NTSC signals. Pretty handy if you want to run Commodore 64 and Commodore Amiga stuff.

Every device with RGBS input can do this. My 1084 runs both PAL and NTSC without issues.

If you are still itching about this and have the money, you will probably always wonder. So here are two options. Go look at one and see what you think. Go buy one and decide for yourself. If you wish you hadn't bought it, sell it. It will be easy to sell. Problem solved.

Some brilliant advice and interesting opinions. I still get the impression that PVMs for most people have the edge over an RGB CRT Trinitron but that for some the latter's more familiar feel (going back to gaming in the 80s and 90s) is better. And that the current outrageous prices simply are not warranted.

If there are any more opinions from anybody who either owns both a CRT and a PVM or has good experience with both that would be fantastic.

As an aside the CRT Trinitrons seem to be very reliable. Any other opinions on PVMs? There does seem to be a little question mark around their longevity and this is a big deal given their premium.

If anybody else could chip in too regarding flat screen vs curved screen on CRT Trinitrons that would be really interesting. My model has a flat screen and I thought that was better but I read here some advocacy for the curved screen.

IandMR wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 7:02 am

I still get the impression that PVMs for most people have the edge over an RGB CRT Trinitron but that for some the latter's more familiar feel (going back to gaming in the 80s and 90s) is better.

This is the main problem with this subject, because while technically PVMs are undoubtedly better, that doesn't necessarily translate as a direct benefit in this use case. Simply put, the majority of the most popular retro gaming in the Eighties (and even early Nineties) was done on RF / Composite equipped TVs. Exception here being PC gaming, but that didn't really take off till Nineties, and RGB monitors for microcomputers were very expensive. This is something devs were of course aware of and it was quite often utilised by them - from the assorted, well known tricks, to the fact that the softer image served as natural, free antialiasing. Different shadowmasks also produce different, distinctive looks.

Secondly, not all PVMs are equal, it's all about TVLs and inputs involved. The cheaper models on ebay might have only 400-600 TVLs and S-Video, and that's really not much different than a modern RGB Trinitron or other top brand model. The higher end PVM/BVMs, with more TVLs will cost arm and leg these days, with bigger un's (>14") starting at _1200USD min. And 800 TVL and up is where you get the extreme scanlines - but that's another acquired taste, which for me is a bit of an internet-driven craze, tbh. Back in the day nobody would willingly want a window-blinds effect in their games. Sure, sharper image can look good, or interesting at least, but I think it largerly depends on a type of a game. I think for some it works well, eg Amiga Workbench, or text & detail-heavy games benefit greatly, others not so much. But this, again, is personal preference territory, not some stone cold gospel (same for flat vs curved, people will talk about geometry issues on the former but, honestly, these things are mostly visible only when you look for them).

I'm about to release a big update for my CRT SCR$ project soon, which has a lot of PVM/BVM photos. If you're interested I can post a few comparison shots here later (though it never works as well as looking at it in person).

As for longevity, there are no rules in this game, because of time periods, uncertainity, and entropy involved. I think you can check the hours on BVMs, but the PVMs are a great unknown, even though of course they were built to last and are more reliable than normal TVs, especially older models. But that still doesn't guarantee that yours won't pack it in the next day after you dropped hundreds of $s on it. After all, most of them were utilised in heavy duty use conditions. Meanwhile, you might find a consumer set that somebody kept in a spare bedroom and turned on 10 times a year, and it will go on fine for another decade or two. Nobody knows. For that reason, it's best to first check if there is somebody capable of TV repairs in your area before spending big (some of them are trivial for an experienced person, like caps replacement, but for me it's mission impossible. I nearly wrote a will before attempting a very simple sharpness adjustment on my allegedly perfect 20" PVM.)

That's related to thorr's advice from the earlier post, to just get one and test ride it if you want to scratch that itch, and sell on later if you don't need it anymore. This is usually pretty sound idea, which I use myself for a lot of modern/retro gear, the one problem here is the cost/bulk/fragility ratio. Unless you find one in driving distance and can pick it up yourself (and for 20" you will need 2 people - these behemoths are unwieldy and weight over 30kg) you are risking the shipping lottery which I mentioned in my 1st post. And when selling, you will face the same problem of packing the thing, carrying, finding a palette, etc. And it's still not a guarantee of flawless delivery. The smaller, ₁₄" models, are a bit easier to deal with but still carry a risk. Eg my ₄₀₀ USD, 800 TVL PVM (14E4), advertised as perfectly flawless, with a lot of good pics, by trusted seller who packed it profesionally, arrived with a small chip in the middle of the glass. It's tiny, but at this level you expect perfection and it can ruin your day. Don't know whether it has happened in delivery or the seller did not mention it, but that's definitely something to consider when thinking about the risk vs cost quagmire.

Overall, they can be a fun thing to have and possibly a good investment too, but it's good to be aware of all the potential issues and caveats.

Wow thank you for the really detailed and insightful reply. I trust it will be helpful to other members looking at the thread later of course too.

Pictures would be great if you are kind enough to post them. Once again thanks so much for taking the time to post.

Nioreh wrote: ↑Sat May 06, 2023 10:02 am

If you are in Europe, PVMs are really not that much of an upgrade over a regular Sonys, since they all have RGB via SCART. I understand that they are sought after in the US, since americans never got RGB hookups on their TV sets, except for the PVMs. Other than RGB, they do have some nice service menus etc, but most consumer sets have that as well, at least the later ones.

We eventually got component video, which is nearly indistinguishable, and was super common on some of the best generation of consumer CRT TVs released. But yeah, before that it was almost entirely composite, occasionally s-video, which was always rough.

I agree with all that have been written in this post.
Pvm are great but only if you find a flawless device and at a decent price.
I got my 14" pvm for about 80€.
I think it's far better to find some 21" Sony trinitron like the kv21fxXX models. You can find those at less than 20€ and sometimes even for free. And the image quality is almost as good as a pvm, as long as you're playing old games, which is the case on mister.

fierman wrote: ↑Sun May 07, 2023 8:03 pm

shertz wrote: ↑Sun May 07, 2023 7:22 pm

Also, PVMs can run both PAL and NTSC signals. Pretty handy if you want to run Commodore 64 and Commodore Amiga stuff.

Every device with RGBS input can do this. My 1084 runs both PAL and NTSC without issues.

I guess I should have been more specific. I meant consumer TVs would not be able to run both NTSC and PAL.

shertz wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 10:20 pm

I meant consumer TVs would not be able to run both NTSC and PAL.

Not really, the later consumer TVs which has been suggested as a good alternative to PVM, like the Sony fx series, are fully multistandard, and can accept NTSC, even from composite.