MiSTer FPGA Forum

I have recently found myself questioning my purchase of a Mister FPGA. I don't own a CRT and I have absolutely no intention of getting one. I have found myself using software emulation quite a bit the last few weeks and I really can't tell the difference. It got me questioning if the only real reason to use a Mister is if you have a CRT to plug into it.

I am genuinely not trying to be controversial here. I am merely trying to come up with the reasons to keep my Mister (plugged into a modern LCD) over just using software emulation and having less clutter of cables on my desk.

One Reason: The Arcade Cores work way better than the same thing with Retroarch/Mame. The Button-Mapping is consistent.

Even without a CRT the experience via MiSTer as a end user is far better. I have tried software emus in comparison recently and some of the multi system setups are horrendous to use.

The HDMI scaler is a great feature and low latency. MiSTer was built around HDMI from what i have seen too

In the end it doesn't really matter the choice is yours

My MiSTer also sits on a desk with an HDMI monitor. The MiSTer gives me the option of using all of its cores in a similar interface and environment. Definitely not all software emulation is created equal and I'm not looking forward to hunting down and configuring all sorts of different emulators on what is essentially my work desktop machine. I also very much like the form factor. It plonks into a bag and goes along on holidays for rainy days with great ease. I know of RetroArch and I consider it a steaming unmaintainable plate of spaghetti code.

My most used cores are the C64, PCXT, AO486 and Minimig in A500 mode. While AO486 has its limitations that I accept, the others really do get me as close as I can get to using real hardware. Obiously I know of Vice and I use it for development. I also know of WinUAE but that entails using Windows which I refuse to use because I consider the versions that are legally available to consumers to be hostile malware. FSUAE is very obtrusive and gets in the way a lot. I do run 86Box and PCem on my PC's for development because they are more versatile in what they emulate than the MiSTer's PC cores are. They do run things like OS/2 for instance, something I haven't yet been able to do on AO486.

The other reason why I love my MiSTer is that my son (6) is able to use it on his own and pull up some SNES, Genesis and now N64 games that he loves to play. He's also intrigued by some of the older arcade cores like PacMan and Space Invaders.

Fuzzball wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 8:29 am

I have recently found myself questioning my purchase of a Mister FPGA. I don't own a CRT and I have absolutely no intention of getting one. I have found myself using software emulation quite a bit the last few weeks and I really can't tell the difference. It got me questioning if the only real reason to use a Mister is if you have a CRT to plug into it.

I am genuinely not trying to be controversial here. I am merely trying to come up with the reasons to keep my Mister (plugged into a modern LCD) over just using software emulation and having less clutter of cables on my desk.

If you are looking for objective reasons it would boil down to things like a smaller power draw of the MiSTer, the ability to use SNAC and some edge cases where an FPGA implementation that is especially built for these cases is more accurate.
I can only speak for myself, my love for the MiSTer (and the MiST from which it spawned) is a subjective "feeling". To me it is a very satisfying thing to know that all the parts of the original machine are now running on a single chip, doing things (more or less) the way they have done on real hardware.
I am aware that software emulation can achieve the same goals if you throw enough CPU power at it and I am also aware that changes the way code is executed in software emulation vs the original hardware can be done in a way that nobody can tell the difference. But it doesn't "feel" the same to me and this is part of the fun using FPGA based simulation.
Additionally the MiSTer has a user interface that is exactly what I want, the menu is displayed almost immediately after powering on the machine (not as fast as on the MiST, but sill faster than on any PC or Raspberry Pi). The menu is clean and gives me all options I need. All cores share the same menu structure and nothing distracts me from doing the things I want to do.
Anybody who ever set up different controllers and screen filters in Retro Arch know what I mean.

To connect a CRT is a nice bonus, even if HDMI was one of the main advantages the MiSTer had above the MiST (which I use connected to a CRT while I use the MiSTer on an 1440p HDMI monitor)

I have my MiSTer hooked up to a CRT and a flat screen. I use both because my TV weighs like 100lbs and I don’t want to rotate it into tate.

it's each to their own of course.. I got my mister in Dec 2018.. and used it on HDMI tv for a couple of years for the reasons others have given. 2 years ago I bought a 14" CRT PC monitor and a 28" CRT colour TV for the express purpose of using them with the Mister and getting as close to my memories of the display I'd seen on 8/16 bit computers from the early 80's to mid 90's.

Emulation on PC is clearly more versatile and, allows you to do things not even possible with the original hardware, like upscaling, using network play, using replacement hi-res texture set, etc. And of course, you can emulate more modern systems, like PS2, PS3, Dreamcast, Gamecube, Naomi, etc.

However, even if you setup a dedicated PC or a Mini-PC for emulation, you still have lots of maintenance to do and lots of complexity to deal with, like choosing between multiple emulators that are started in different ways (Retroarch, non-Retroarch, Mame, etc.) so you usually need to track down configuration files in many different places, so it's a lot of extra work, and you also need to do lots of OS maintenance as well. PC usually draw a lot more power and, in general, require proper modern video cards and fast CPUs to emulate modern systems, which is the main reason why you'd want to use a PC for emulation. You might already have a gaming PC, so that might not be a big issue, but if you want to setup a dedicated PC for emulation, it might be a fairly expensive proposition. Again, if you want to emulate the more modern systems only a (good) PC can do (like PS3) or heavily upscale systems llke PS2/Gamecube/WiiU, etc.

If your goal is to emulate 90's and before retro system, a gaming PC is really overkill, a Raspbery PI might be a better choice (RPi-5 can do PSP, PS2 or GC, even if not in 4K), because portability, low-power draw and it might sit nice either on a desktop or close to a TV.

However, I think the Raspberry is plagued by the same issue of a full PC, and it's the bloat put in the user interfaces, wasting lots of cpu cycles and memory just to make a fancy interface with game covers, borders, preview videos, external attract modes, and all that stuff that is nice to look at, but it comes with a cost in startup time and taking away resources in general.

I bought every single Raspberry version as soon as it came out so, of course, when 5 came out, I had to buy it and yes, it is a powerful little machine but, the two main distributions that supports it, Batocera and Retropie (still in beta), are so bloated with stuff they become very confusing to use, especially when something doesn't work as you expect. Batocera is easier to install, but it's too inflexible if some emulators don't comply with its own configuration system, Retropie is more flexible, but it has so much going on, that you can easily get lost in the settings.

Then we get to the gaming experience: people say emulation lag can't be detected by normal users, but why when (after several years of being accustomed to Mister), when I first tried my new RPI5, almost every emulator I tried felt "wrong" and "disconnected" ?

It's some kind of placebo effect: since you know there's some extra lag, you start to feel it, no matter how small ? I first suspected this, then I saw videos showing how latency can affect gameplay, like in the infamous chase in Battletoads or the issues with Speedy Gonzales so no, I don't think lag is just something "in your mind", it exists and it can affect actual gameplay. Some cores that are very accurate on Mister, the lack of lag is a clear advantage.

Ease to connect to a CRT is a big advantage as well. Sure there are ways to connect a PC or an RPI to a CRT, but Mister is way easier.

SNAC is of course a big advantage: there's something magical about being able to use the original controllers directly, with no conversion whatsoever, so if you combine CRT + SNAC, you basically removed any extra lag. But it's not just lag: it feels authentic being able to use even weird controllers like Namco PSX Jog Controller, or Lightguns. I even managed to use a NES Powerglove, to be sure it was working correct before I sold it...

Well, it's not for everyone.

Some good points made. Personally, the comments on arcade cores and the simplicity/convenience of the Mister hit home the most. I don't think I could ever have the time or inclination to try setting up the same arcade setup on any other device. I never really got to play arcade games as a kid so get to see what I missed out on.

To give a little more context into why I asked is that myself and my wife went away at Easter staying in a hotel. We joked while we were there how nice it was to get away from the clutter of our house for a week. So many years of accumulating stuff. On the journey back we decided we'd have a big spring clearout and declutter including electrical equipment. I don't have a large amount of gadgets by any stretch of the imagination but I am still looking to reduce it to little more than the essentials. My Mister with quite a few cables running off it stands out a mile when it comes to untidy electricals. So I was giving it some thought how much it would tidy my home office.

The simplicity/convenience comments reminds me though how little free time and energy I have for setting all this stuff up manually these days. Just from that perspective I think I would regret it.

If you are using emulators in a standard way -AKA without Calamity drivers, for example-, then Mister offers you the correct sync refresh if your monitor allows it and low latency controls. Apart from that, there are none or very little differences speaking in terms of accuracy.

Super Gameboy emulation isn't quite there yet. The MiSTer handles that system flawlessly

i have only ever connected my MiSTer to a HDTV or computer monitor over HDMI. first on an HDTV and then after running into refresh rate incompatibilities and learning that rotating games in the MiSTer menu (where its not supported by the core in dip switch settings or an ingame menu) adds a 1-frame buffer, i switched to only using a modern 1080p computer monitor, and that allows me to rotate the screen freely and has an amazing response rate and input lag. i dont have a need for a CRT, and for me, my setup is the best way to play '90s retro.

i have used emulation since the early 2000s, when MAME was first born and ZSNES was the most common super nintendo emulator. nowadays, retroarch with 1 to 2 preemptive frames and good frame delay settings is basically the same perceived input latency. but where the MiSTer shines is the versatility of sending the original refresh rates/FPS of these old consoles, having cycle accuracy with perfectly synced audio, and a truer input latency that is not tricked into performing like retroarch does.

granted, you can get to a close comparison if you have a beefy computer and spend hours(days?) setting up a core library and configuring everything, but the MiSTer does all of the time consuming video/audio/input settings out of the box in a lightweight, low power, plug-and-play way.
easily one of the best electronics purchase ive made.

Manic Miner at 65". Nuff said.

I've been emulating through software for many years, and I don't think I could go back after using the MiSTer. The lag and latency are so much better. For instance, Saturn is my main system that I want to play, aside from arcade cores. It's hard to describe how much better the experience is on MiSTer, it feels like real hardware. One obvious thing I noticed is the audio lag. Using software emulation, the audio is always a half a second off. Which isn't always obvious, but when navigating menus the audio 'ding' always follows my movement by about a half a second, but everything is perfect on the MiSTer. That fact that this small, single board computer that's about 12 years old and is considerably less powerful than a raspberry Pi can simulate a Sega Saturn so well is truly amazing to me.

I Agree with the banana doctor!
The audio is the biggest reason for me, PC/Pi emulation almost never gets the audio 100% perfect.
It almost always lag behind a bit because audio buffer, or you get cracks/stutters with no or very small audio buffer, sometime you even get both.

Audio is critical for me so this is an advantage that an old CRT doesn't provide anything to me. The smooth scrolling on the scaler is pretty much unmatched given the amount of options you get with it outside of maybe 1 super expensive external scaler.

CRTs are nice .. but for many many years I had my mister just on an LCD HDMI display (the one LCD I have for all my stuff in my microscopic sized office) and it was fine, only recently I got a Commodore 1702 monitor for my Ultimate 64 and put some effort into getting a switcher so I could route the hdmi out over to the 1702 monitor via composite and it looks really nice, I only do that occasionally eg for some console cores .. but you dont HAVE TO use a CRT to enjoy it .. its just nice but I wouldnt say its a must .. the "fake" scanline filters they have in the MISTER for LCD / HDMI displays are pretty effective and very serviceable (and this is from someone who generally detests fake scanlines).

I'm going to be honest: The fad to have CRTs is bizarre hipster shit.

I've had plenty of CRTs for a long time. Aside from simple nostalgia, their main technical advantages over modern displays are zero latency (hopefully also with mode switching) and the picture looks really nice with retro games.

These advantages don't really exist anymore. MiSTer nowadays can produce a very convincing CRT-like picture on a near-zero latency monitor and the experience of using it is like a console/arcade cab, just power it on and start a game and it works.

Meanwhile the downsides of CRTs are just getting worse. They're as bulky as ever while screen size is at best moderate, quite sensitive to eg. getting bumped means geometry possibly permanently ruined (bigger = more sensitive), can't place near unprotected speakers due to magnets, and as they're getting older their need for more involved servicing also increases because electrolytic capacitors have a very finite lifespan. I've had to do various adjustments/repairs for every single CRT I've had just to get the picture somewhat good and while I generally enjoy electronics work, I do not like things like adjusting a CRT yoke. Try it and you'll find out why. And I'm not even touching on how stupidly expensive aging CRTs have become in recent years.

For me, the biggest reason to own a MiSTer is precisely not using it with a CRT.

Of course, software emulation has also made leaps in all fronts, from input latency and CRT filters to usability. I'm not well versed in this front, but I acknowledge that for many people, MiSTer itself is "bizarre hipster shit". They're probably not wrong and wouldn't benefit from owning one.

And for what it's worth, I still own CRTs and like using them, makes me feel good for reasons I cannot really explain beyond nostalgia. Just pretty much everything else about them seriously sucks and unlike MiSTer or software emulation, CRTs are never going to get better, only worse as time goes on.

What bollocks.
Even my CRTs from 40 years ago, such as the Commodore 1701, 3x Amstrad CTM644s, Philips CM8833, all work perfect, and I've never had to mess with the yoke
And, if you think the Mister's scanlines look anything like a real CRT, then you need to go to specsavers for an eye test.
Seriously, some utter shite gets posted here, no wonder the Mister "Community" is looked on as a cult.

Koston wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 11:20 am

These advantages don't really exist anymore. MiSTer nowadays can produce a very convincing CRT-like picture on a near-zero latency monitor and the experience of using it is like a console/arcade cab, just power it on and start a game and it works.

The shaders on the MiSTer are great, but no match for a real CRT picture. And apart from the filters there are more things hard to replicate. Unless you use a 120Hz LCD with black frame insertion you want get the same clear picture with fast scrolling games you get on a CRT.
Just boot up Uridium 2 on the Amiga and compare the scrolling on a CRT with the scrolling on a LCD panel that does not have BFI. The difference is staggering.

I am a CRT snob, just like I am a MiSTer snob. I just like the fact that everything is more "real" instead of layers upon layers of stuff to closely simulate real. Knowing that it is a real CRT alone gives me the goosebumps that no LCD ever could. GroovyMiSTer, etc. is amazing, but I prefer actual FPGA hardware for constructing the console, etc. as opposed to software on a PC when I have a choice. Not because I can tell the difference in a blind test or not, but because of the feeling that comes from knowing how it works behind the scenes and the technology behind it. I use SNAC more often than not. So, in my personal opinion, the better question to ask is "What are the reasons to avoid owning a CRT when you own a MiSTer?" I just upgraded my JVC 32" to a newer Toshiba 32" and the footprint on my desk is massively smaller with the same size image. It goes in the corner of the room so the back can jut into the corner. I also have a Sony 20" mainly for computer cores like C64, and a rotatable Panasonic 20" in my arcade cabinet. I also have a 17" SVGA monitor for a lot of things including PC and Mac LC III stuff and higher resolution MiSTer cores, and an Apple IIc composite monitor on my IIc. Everything fits just fine in my room.

Bristles wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 12:34 pm

no wonder the Mister "Community" is looked on as a cult.

say whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat???

Chris23235 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 2:50 pm

Koston wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 11:20 am

These advantages don't really exist anymore. MiSTer nowadays can produce a very convincing CRT-like picture on a near-zero latency monitor and the experience of using it is like a console/arcade cab, just power it on and start a game and it works.

The shaders on the MiSTer are great, but no match for a real CRT picture. And apart from the filters there are more things hard to replicate. Unless you use a 120Hz LCD with black frame insertion you want get the same clear picture with fast scrolling games you get on a CRT.
Just boot up Uridium 2 on the Amiga and compare the scrolling on a CRT with the scrolling on a LCD panel that does not have BFI. The difference is staggering.

That depends. A high quality CRT in good condition does look better, but the difference gap has narrowed in recent years enough that it doesn't bother me anymore. And most old TVs are not in such condition, they tend to have more issues than you can shake a stick at.

And unfortunately due to electrolytics having a limited life span, all electronics pushing 40yo or even beyond is due for recapping and it's a lot of work. I've been doing it enough to be looking at owning a lot of hardware from a little different perspective. Most people don't either know this at all, or just don't recognise typical signs of eg. power filter caps failing in an amplifier. And when you can clearly hear it, recapping is badly overdue and you're risking bigger damage. CRTs are pretty painful to recap too and schematics harder to find than for pro audio gear.

thorr wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 7:12 pm

I am a CRT snob, just like I am a MiSTer snob. I just like the fact that everything is more "real" instead of layers upon layers of stuff to closely simulate real. Knowing that it is a real CRT alone gives me the goosebumps that no LCD ever could. GroovyMiSTer, etc. is amazing, but I prefer actual FPGA hardware for constructing the console, etc. as opposed to software on a PC when I have a choice. Not because I can tell the difference in a blind test or not, but because of the feeling that comes from knowing how it works behind the scenes and the technology behind it. I use SNAC more often than not. So, in my personal opinion, the better question to ask is "What are the reasons to avoid owning a CRT when you own a MiSTer?" I just upgraded my JVC 32" to a newer Toshiba 32" and the footprint on my desk is massively smaller with the same size image. It goes in the corner of the room so the back can jut into the corner. I also have a Sony 20" mainly for computer cores like C64, and a rotatable Panasonic 20" in my arcade cabinet. I also have a 17" SVGA monitor for a lot of things including PC and Mac LC III stuff and higher resolution MiSTer cores, and an Apple IIc composite monitor on my IIc. Everything fits just fine in my room.

I appreciate a man who knows what he likes and is not ashamed to say it!

Koston wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 12:12 am

Chris23235 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 2:50 pm

Koston wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 11:20 am

These advantages don't really exist anymore. MiSTer nowadays can produce a very convincing CRT-like picture on a near-zero latency monitor and the experience of using it is like a console/arcade cab, just power it on and start a game and it works.

The shaders on the MiSTer are great, but no match for a real CRT picture. And apart from the filters there are more things hard to replicate. Unless you use a 120Hz LCD with black frame insertion you want get the same clear picture with fast scrolling games you get on a CRT.
Just boot up Uridium 2 on the Amiga and compare the scrolling on a CRT with the scrolling on a LCD panel that does not have BFI. The difference is staggering.

That depends. A high quality CRT in good condition does look better, but the difference gap has narrowed in recent years enough that it doesn't bother me anymore. And most old TVs are not in such condition, they tend to have more issues than you can shake a stick at.

And unfortunately due to electrolytics having a limited life span, all electronics pushing 40yo or even beyond is due for recapping and it's a lot of work. I've been doing it enough to be looking at owning a lot of hardware from a little different perspective. Most people don't either know this at all, or just don't recognise typical signs of eg. power filter caps failing in an amplifier. And when you can clearly hear it, recapping is badly overdue and you're risking bigger damage. CRTs are pretty painful to recap too and schematics harder to find than for pro audio gear.

I use my MiST on a Commodore 1081 monitor from 1985 and my MiSTer on a 32 inch 165Hz curved gaming monitor with overclocked pixel clock and the difference in the clarity of the scrolling is night and day. Do yourself a favor if you have the opportunity to compare a fast scrolling game from the 1980s on a CRT with a fast scrolling game on a LCD. When you don't have black frame insertion you have no chance to reach the blurfree scrolling of a CRT on any LCD panel.
The filters of the MiSTer can't help you here. It is simply the way the technology works.
Sure older technology will fail, but as long as the tube in intact it can be repaired. The components are standard components and can be replaced. For this reason CRTs won't go anywhere among a small group of older tech enthusiasts. And this is fine. Don't see any use in a CRT? Don't use one. Find CRTs are to bulky for your standard? Don't use one. But don't try to tell people they are wrong for pointing out certain advantages of the technology, as these advantages are there together with the disadvantages of CRTs. It is up to anyone to decide what values the most
People still uses tube amplifiers to listen to music, they still use mechanical watches, they still read books on paper. In theory all these technologies are outdated but many people still prefer them over their technological successors.
In the end, we are talking about FPGA simulations of mainly 8 and 16 Bit computers/consoles the whole point in using a MiSTer is to run software for clearly outdated tech that comes with as many disadvantages as a CRT.

Chris23235 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 5:54 am

CRTs won't go anywhere among a small group of older tech enthusiasts.

Them becoming trendy is what I'm criticizing.

It causes prices to get outrageously inflated and that small group of tech enthusiasts - which I most definitely also represent - gets slowly excluded from their own hobby. This has already happened with arcade PCBs, and both share the same problem of not being manufactured anymore. Most people getting roped into buying old CRTs today would be much better off just finding a good 120Hz BFI+VRR display, and for reasons listed earlier, that probably includes me.

The primary goal of the MiSTer project has always been preserving old games by recreating them for use with modern peripherals (HDMI, USB) using widely available hardware. Using it with a CRT has never been a priority, which is pretty evident by looking at the sub-par quality of the official analog I/O board VGA output circuit. So, it is both amusing and frustrating that people are starting think think they need a CRT for a MiSTer.

Trends are the real mind killer.

Every single LCD TV, Monitor that I have owned, in the last 20 years, has died in some way - either just died, picture went fuzzy, black lines everywhere, or leaking black liquid in the bottom corners. Even my current PC monitor, an LG C1 OLED TV 48", is on it's way out - it keeps dimming now, and I have slight burn-in in the bottom corners, and LG's pixel refresh does nothing. Yet, ALL my CRTs, right back to 1984, are still working perfect.

I also find it amusing that some here buy the Mister, bang on about accuracy, and low lag, then go and buy a stupid LCD monitor with it's own lag, and a tech that was never meant for these old games. Plus, you are limited to 1920x1440@60 without pixel repetition, and scanlines, and especially shadowmasks, look crap at any resolution below 4k. But hey, you keep convincing yourselves that it "Looks" like a CRT - It doesn't. Never will.
You will never match a CRT for motion clarity, or mimic it's scanlines with fake scanlines that darken the image - CRTs don't do this.
Even emulation looks far superior to Mister's scanlines, and shadowmasks, thanks to modern shaders - just look at Retroarch + Megabezel shader, looks a million times better that the shite coming from the Mister.
And don't call it a trend, it just makes you look a dick.

Bristles wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 11:32 am

And don't call it a trend, it just makes you look a dick.

Big Dick Energy™

Fuzzball wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 8:29 am

I have recently found myself questioning my purchase of a Mister FPGA. I don't own a CRT and I have absolutely no intention of getting one. I have found myself using software emulation quite a bit the last few weeks and I really can't tell the difference. It got me questioning if the only real reason to use a Mister is if you have a CRT to plug into it.

I am genuinely not trying to be controversial here. I am merely trying to come up with the reasons to keep my Mister (plugged into a modern LCD) over just using software emulation and having less clutter of cables on my desk.

The reasons for having a MiSTer without CRT are pretty much the same as those for having one with a CRT.
1) Many (but not all) cores offer more accurate emulation than existing software emulators
2) For games where reaction time/latency is a key element, MiSTer offers lower latency on most hardware, and objective means of measuring it (Mister Laggy for example).

If you can’t tell the difference, then perhaps item 2 above is not relevant to you or your playing habits.

And I suppose that, depending on what you’re playing, maybe item 1 above is not important to you either… but I assure you that it is important to many people (I can say this unambiguously because I make updates to the TurboGrafx core for specifically this reason, and emulators don’t tend to accept pull requests as easily for emulation accuracy).